Isolation

[milesdyson]

depends on the players behind me dude, and i'm not about to tell you who they all are that would make me raise it. i will say that there are times i would raise QTo in MP2 because this guy limped in front of me. there are also times i would fold it and limp it. against typical players i would basically never raise QTo in MP2, so look, i am loosening up!

[Bradyams]

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If he open-limps my raising standards should open up quite a bit. When a player like this has pretty much what can be considered slightly better than random it's not a bad idea to isolate, and hope you catch anything at all so you can value bet his ass all the way to showdown.

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I disagree. You MUST account for the other players in the hand.

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Exactly, this is why you raise to shut them out, and get HU w/ the fish.

Maybe I am weak tight, but I generally only raise with people behind me with hands that can withstand a reraise. Things like QTo don't qualify.

[bozlax]

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In fact, the people behind you (especially the blinds) will have even better odds to call with the extra money in the pot.

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Ok, I'll admit that I've already read your argument with Miles, but haven't seen this addressed, yet:

The above statement is unmitigated bullshit.

Fishy is in MP1. It's folded to him, so there are 1.5SB in the pot. He limps (2.5SB). You raise (4.5SB). The first cold-caller is now getting 2.25:1 to call instead of 2.5:1. The next cold-caller is getting 3.25:1 instead of 3.5:1. If it's folded to SB, he's getting 3:1 instead of 5:1. If it gets to BB, he's getting whatever he's getting instead of infinite odds by checking. Which of these players sees their odds improved by your raise?

Improved odds over open raising, not improved over limping. I want to know in what way a limper in front of him loosens his raising standards.

It's called reading. Left to right, up to down. Put together words to make sentences.

[milesdyson]

boz, yeah. i was kind of trying to get him to realize on his own that raising can in no way make a blind's preflop odds better. guess that was too complicated.

edit: my lord... so you've been saying all along that because there's a limper in front of you, anyone behind you is getting better odds if you raise than if you were to open raise? GENIUS! this is a breakthrough. does this mean if there are 5 limpers we should not raise good hands because coldcallers will be getting better odds?

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boz, yeah. i was kind of trying to get him to realize on his own that raising can in no way make a blind's preflop odds better. guess that was too complicated.

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See above. I am talking about the difference between having the fish before you when you raise and not having him before you when you raise.

NOT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RAISING AND LIMPING.

Is english too difficult for you all? When all else fails, try a straw man, I guess...

[milesdyson]

you are winding, winding disastrously into a spiral of convoluted thoughts and confusion. you continue to form lovely, complete sentences that do nothing to support your claim that you should not raise more hands after this player.

I have not changed my arguement one word. If you would not raise with a hand under normal circumstances, there is no need to raise just because somebody soft limped in front of you.

Having somebody limp in front of you DOES NOT make QTo a raising hand from MP. I made the pot odds argument because the only difference between open raising and raising with the fish limper in front is that future callers have better odds to do it with, because of the presence of the limper.

That has been my arguement the entire time. I am not spiraling anywhere.

[benkath1]

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boz, yeah. i was kind of trying to get him to realize on his own that raising can in no way make a blind's preflop odds better. guess that was too complicated.

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See above. I am talking about the difference between having the fish before you when you raise and not having him before you when you raise.

NOT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RAISING AND LIMPING.

Is english too difficult for you all? When all else fails, try a straw man, I guess...

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To get semi back on topic. I think the reason to raise after the 84%er limps is to fold the rest of the field. You may have a marginal hand, but if the rest of the table are decent and don't like to cold call, they should fold, or 3-bet. Again, as it has been said before, this is all situational. Your raise to isolate with a marginal hand is to get other marginal hands that are better than yours to fold. If that won't work, then tighten up your isolation standards.