|
|
#1
05-31-2005, 11:18 PM
|
|||
|
|||
logic flawed? NL limp or raise
1. Assumption - Ac Jd can't stand a raise, but 7s8s can stand a raise preflop.
2. Example - a. It's folded to me in a no limit game and I am on the button with As Jc. I decide to raise. b. Same situation but I am on the button with 7s6s. This time I call. 3. Thoughts - If I just call with Ace Jack and it's raised, I will have to fold based on the assumption above. The 7s6s can stand a raise in position, again based on the assumption. Is there any merit to raising more with a hand that can't stand a raise but calling more with a drawing type suited connector hand that can stand a raise? Another problem with the small suited connectors is that normally if you miss the flop, you are not going to win in a showdown with hard card strength. If the AJ hand gets checked down your ace high may win the pot for you. The seven six hand will most likely need some help. 
|
|
#2
06-01-2005, 02:03 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: logic flawed? NL limp or raise
It depends on how the table you are playing at is playing.
If people have been folding to your aggression, then raising pre flop with AJ to etiher win the pot right there or get into a heads up with one of the limpers is a good move in my book. Unless they are deceptive players you stand a high chance of having best hand over the limpers pre flop. If your AJ is raised it depends on who is doing the raising. If it's a LAG that is in many hands then you have to decide whether to call or reraise based on what hands you have seen him playing and his reaction to being reraised. If you have seen that play made on him. If you get a raise and reraise back at you then I'd consider laying it down unless it is a a pair of LAG's that are playing anything trying to steal pots. But, usually a reraise of a raise with the original raiser still to act indicates strength and you woulkd seriously want to consider laying the hand down unless the odds are too tempting. I wouldn't raise pre flop with suited connectors unless I thought I could win the pot right then. I'd rather limp with them since they are a speculative hand. If you want to occaisonally rasie with them to keep people from getting a good read on your play I don't think that's a bad idea. The only problem with that is you have to get to va situation where you can show them to let people know you will raise with that type of hand. If you do it and have to muck them yuo really aren't advertising what you just did. I'm, not a fan of the 78s or 98s etc. can stand a raise pre flop theory unless the odds or implied are good. But, Im speaking from a NL persepective not limit.
|
|
#3
06-01-2005, 12:03 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: logic flawed? NL limp or raise
i have no problem open raising with suited connectors in late position. they can stand up to a raise because the implied odds are always good. every hand this side of QQ is at least a little speculative... that doesn't slow me down.
if your up against a huge pocket pair middle suited connectors are your best chance.
|
|
#4
06-01-2005, 06:15 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: logic flawed? NL limp or raise
In addition to the excellent replies you have already received, I would add that you often raise on hands that can't stand a reraise, and call on hands that can. In many cases, calling is a stronger action than raising.
|
|
#5
06-02-2005, 11:36 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: logic flawed? NL limp or raise
You seem to be forgetting that AJ can stand a CALL better than 87s can. When called it can win un improved, and it is still a winning hand when it flops a pair. Its value drops (drastically) only the tightest players call or some reasonable player reraises.
But back to your example. 72o cannot stand a raise but you won't raise with it. The reason to call with 87s isn't because it can call a raise, its because its value is based on implied odds and that means get in as cheaply as possible. - Louie Having said all that, there ARE times (excluding bluffs) when you'll bet a lesser hand and check a better hand.
|
|
#6
06-03-2005, 10:58 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: logic flawed? NL limp or raise
Here's the problem with your assumption. When you say that 78s can "stand up to a raise", what you are really saying is that, having limped, you can now call a raise with it in position (and you're correct).
But that doesn't mean its profitable to call a raise in position with it, it simply means that its less unprofitable. So lets say you limp with 78s... there are three possible scenarios 1. The blinds check and or call and you see a flop for the price of the big blind. This situation has a positive EV (or it can, depending on the game), because you will win enough pots to make up for the one big blind you're spending. 2. One of the blinds raises, and you fold to the raise. Now, you have paid the price of the big blind to see the flop, but you have no chance to win the pot... this scenario has a negative EV of -1 big blind. 3. You limp, one of the blinds raises (for the sake of argument, say he raises to 3XBB), and you call the raise. In general, you are going to win the pot almost as frequently here as you would have otherwise... and now the pots you're going to win are bigger, on average, than they would be otherwise. The problem is that they dont grow porportionally to your investment. So you won't make enough money when you win a big pot, on average, to recoup the loss from the (far more frequent occassions) when you have to throw your hand away to a bet on the flop. But frequently, you will still make enough money on these hands so that your -ev is less that it would have been had you limped and then folded. Scenario 3 is still losing you money in the long run. That is to say, except in exceptional circumstances, if you somehow had the foreknowledge that a player in later position was going to raise (a tell, or a crystal ball) you would fold 78s. AJo and 78s are both unprofitable when you limp with them and they are raised. The difference is that with 78s, the optimal strategy to diminish that unprofitability is to call the raise, while with AJo, the optimal strategy is to fold. [ QUOTE ] 1. Assumption - Ac Jd can't stand a raise, but 7s8s can stand a raise preflop. 2. Example - a. It's folded to me in a no limit game and I am on the button with As Jc. I decide to raise. b. Same situation but I am on the button with 7s6s. This time I call. 3. Thoughts - If I just call with Ace Jack and it's raised, I will have to fold based on the assumption above. The 7s6s can stand a raise in position, again based on the assumption. Is there any merit to raising more with a hand that can't stand a raise but calling more with a drawing type suited connector hand that can stand a raise? Another problem with the small suited connectors is that normally if you miss the flop, you are not going to win in a showdown with hard card strength. If the AJ hand gets checked down your ace high may win the pot for you. The seven six hand will most likely need some help. [/ QUOTE ]
|
|
#7
06-03-2005, 07:35 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: logic flawed? NL limp or raise
the real flaw in logic is open-limping with anything on the button in NL without a titanic read. yak.
fim
|
|
#8
06-03-2005, 08:26 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: logic flawed? NL limp or raise
Calling the replies in this thread (excluding fimbul's) "excellent" is a stretch. 76s should be raised on the button for the reason that limping is criminally bad. You just said AJ can't stand a raise. What are the odds that someone is holding a hand better than AJ, and is this able to withstand a raise or reraise? The raise is compulsory because by failing to raise, you allow two random hands to get a cheap or free shot at winning your pot.
Furthermore, by open-limping 76s, you procure for yourself the worst of both worlds. If someone does have a good hand, they raise you and you call. The money gets in only when you have the worst of it. Finally, you have no fear of a reraise, since you can fold your garbage easily (unless stacks are very deep).
|
|
#9
06-03-2005, 11:39 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: logic flawed? NL limp or raise
I think that any open raise on the button with a suited connector is simply an attempt to steal the blinds. You can't call a reraise or any bet after a flop that does not smack you in the head. That hand is great in a pot with several limpers. You look to flop the nuts and break the guy who flopped a set or limped with a big pair. Your almost never favored to a reraise and your probably a huge dog. Fold if your not looking to take the blinds.
I would raise with aj and call a reasonable reraise. The raiser probably has a pair or an ace higher than yours. If an ace flops, the pair will most likely play weak if they respect you. If the flop is small, the big ace will play weak. If you can't tell if the flop hit them after you bet and watch their play, then poker's just not your game, Ike. I know there are ten reasons why I'm wrong, but that's my take.
|
|
#10
06-04-2005, 09:36 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: logic flawed? NL limp or raise
Clearly the biggest problem with this post and all the replies is people thinking they're correct without knowing any details about the game and other players.
Calling a raise with a suited connector isn't always a case of being "less unprofitable" than the alternatives. In fact, there are certain players/situations that make calling a raise in position with a hand like 76s become one of my favorite situations in NLHE. There'a also times that it makes me want to hurl.
|
 |
|
|
Linear Mode
