are people capable of being selfless?

[censored] · #1 07-15-2005, 02:32 AM

Simple question can a rational and intelligent human when presented with choices pick any one besides the one which provides them with the highest utility? Is this the definition of sane?

drudman · #2 07-15-2005, 02:42 AM

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Simple question can a rational and intelligent human when presented with choices pick any one besides the one which they think provides them with the highest utility? Is this the definition of sane?

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FYP.

And the answer is no.

bronzepiglet · #3 07-15-2005, 03:06 AM

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Simple question can a rational and intelligent human when presented with choices pick any one besides the one which provides them with the highest utility? Is this the definition of sane?

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I think you're talking about exactly what I was trying to get at in that other thread.

Without god and believing the evolutionary model as it is currently accepted, this is the only scenario. Trying to introduce morals into this system can only be considered irrational, so yes, it probably is the definition of sane in a universe with the mentioned assumptions.

gumpzilla · #4 07-15-2005, 03:11 AM

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And the answer is no.

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Well argued. Nobody can resist your forceful argumentation.

David Sklansky · #5 07-15-2005, 05:53 AM

Simple question can a rational and intelligent human when presented with choices pick any one besides the one which they think provides them with the highest utility? Is this the definition of sane?

FYP.

And the answer is no.

I assume you are answering the first question. But if you are right, it leads in some cases to prisoner dillemmas. Meaning that in the long run people are sometimes better off if your answer wasn't always correct. And the easiest way to get that to happen is to get them to believe in God. This was clear to Moses, Jesus, and me but not to many others.

SNOWBALL138 · #6 07-15-2005, 06:01 AM

This is a silly question, because "utility" is not an objective concept.

If you presented a mother with the option of dying or saving her child from death, she could very well choose to die. Is she picking the choice that has the greatest utility to her? If so, then you have to define utility subsequent to the person's choice, in which case its a silly tautology.

Ok. I'm done here.

disjunction · #7 07-15-2005, 07:17 AM

I don't like to think about this one too much.

But what I do like to think about is the story of the guy on that passenger airliner that crashed over Washington D.C. in 1982 which crash-landed in the lake in winter. As the survivors treaded the near-freezing water, every time the helicopters threw the rescue rope to him he passed it to someone else, a complete stranger. This repeated several times. The guy eventually drowned, and no one ever found out who he was.

I am actually too young to remember this story first-hand, so feel free to correct me if I messed up any of the details.

BZ_Zorro · #8 07-15-2005, 08:31 AM

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Simple question can a rational and intelligent human when presented with choices pick any one besides the one which provides them with the highest utility? Is this the definition of sane?

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Yes. Some aspects of morality are exactly this imo.

A simple example is the soldiers of WWII, and some of the thousands of acts of voluntary heroism. It's pretty hard to argue they're picking a choice with the highest personal utility.

K C · #9 07-15-2005, 08:32 AM

This is a silly question if we build the pursuit of utility into it. Could a rational person, one that pursues utility, remain rational and disposess utility?

There are a lot of irrational acts and irrational people though. There are people who knowingly behave against their higher order preferences. Now some of these people we would classify as "insane," but it wouldn't be sufficient of course.

I was in a major business deal some years ago where I made the mistake of presuming the rationality of the other principal. It cost me dearly. I never presume this anymore [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

KC

bossJJ · #10 07-15-2005, 11:04 AM

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But what I do like to think about is the story of the guy on that passenger airliner that crashed over Washington D.C. in 1982 which crash-landed in the lake in winter. As the survivors treaded the near-freezing water, every time the helicopters threw the rescue rope to him he passed it to someone else, a complete stranger. This repeated several times. The guy eventually drowned, and no one ever found out who he was.

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If that guy wasn't a Christian, he's in hell now, along with Ghandi and all the Jews who were killed in the holocaust. If Christian theology is true, they are all in hell.