Identifying Leaks

[golfboy7]

Hi all.

Last night was the final straw.

played 40k hands last month of 2/4 and 3/6 4 tabling and was not a huge winner at either, but showed around a 1.1bb/100 profit + rakeback so everything was going well.

This month, total opposite. Small sample size so far, but after 7k hands, I'm -1.4bb/100 4 tabling the 2/4.

Allow me my moment of Ranting, if you don't wanna read it, skip the next two paragraphs.

First straw was entering a 30+3 NL multi tourney just to switch things up. Within first 3 rounds I've almost tripled up because of AA, KK, AKx3, and QQ. So I got some cards early which was nice and just kinda cruised for a while. So we're down to 250 players and I've been stagnant for a bit. haven't played a hand in bout 3 or 4 orbits. UTG i'm looking at KK and since the blinds are 50/100 and I have 2800 and every single pot's been raised pre flop for the last 20 mins, I go for the limp reraise....works perfectly. Some guy on my left limps too, then a raise to 600, the SB calls short (all-in) and I come over the top, expecting a protected pot from the all-in'er. To my delight, the raiser has me covered and calls. He shows QQ and next thing I know I'm out of the tourney at around 250. No big deal, it happens, but it's still frustrating, especially with the last 7k hands being so bad.

So I go back to 4 tabling 2/4 and I'm at an awesome table. I am not kidding at all that this table was 44 vpip, 1 pfr, and around 40 wts. It was awesome. Then this occurs. I get 99 in MP1 and raise it, 3 cold callers (nice). Flop comes 6 8 10rainbow. I bet, call, call, raise. I call, call, Raise, call. (interesting) One more bet to me, I call, RAISE, call, call. (wtf...cap'd and i'm gutshot but only paying 1 bet each time...odd) Turn is my MIRACLE 7 of spades. needless to say, cap'd again. River is 2 of spades. I lead out, call, RAISE....are you friggin kidding me...did he stumble his 2 pair into a flush?....I make a crying call only to be 3 bet by the guy in the middle...I'm ripping out my hair. we both call and here's the hands:
MP2 shows Qs3s for the pre flop cold call, cap'd flop runner runner non-nut flush.
Cutoff shows 10s4s for the pre flop cold call,..blah blah

I was not happy.

So thank god my internet cut out for the night cause I think I would have tilteda little more away after that hand as I was pretty pissed. (Rare for me to get emotional anymore, but this month is different.)

So last month I was beating the 2/4 4tables for over 1bb/100. Nothing spectacular but semi-respectable. I made the move, mid-month to 3/6 and got beat down to the tune of -.3bb/100 over 25k hands. So this month I'm back to 2/4 to plug leaks. hence the name of the post.

I use PT and gametime+ and am really trying hard to analyze my stats and learn from them.

So help me out. I've pretty much identified QJ and KJ in EP as being some minor leaks. My stats aren't out of the ordinary, 18vpip, 9pfr, 33ish WTS, with 51ish W$aSD.

How do you all use PT to identify leaks? Point me in the right direction here if you would please.

Note * - I'm at work right now and can get on the net anytime to discuss and chat, but I do not have my PT stats available to me here. If you have specific questions that would enable you to answer with more accuracy, leave em and I will try to answer them when I get home.

Note 2 - I know 7k hands isn't a large sample size, but my bankroll is slowly shrinking and it's time to evaluate.

Thank you everyone. I'll be looking in.

[crunchy1]

My 2 cents...

Just go back after your playing sessions and review your hands. I like to sort a session's worth of hands by Net$$Won ascending. I want to look at all the hands that I lost money on and figure out how I could've played those hands better. I look at all my hands - winners and losers - but, looking at the losing hands always seemed like a good place to start.

There's no substitute for reviewing your hand histories. It's amazing how much clearer and more precise your thought process will be away from the table. It's just like practicing for a sport or a musical instrument. You'll review these hands and begin to see and identify the same mistakes over and over. Eventually these mistakes will become so ingrained in your mind that you won't even think twice about making them when you get back to the action.

[golfboy7]

hmmm

So take a look at my 'losingest' sessions first and identify which hands I lost with and why. Then look at other sessions and see if the same things are occuring.

I'll have to do this tonight.

More suggestions people MORE MORE MORE [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
So take a look at my 'losingest' sessions first and identify which hands I lost with and why. Then look at other sessions and see if the same things are occuring.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's probably not a bad thing but, that's not what I meant. After any session go back and review. It doesn't matter if the session as a whole was a win or loss - that's irrelevant. What I look at are individual hands. For example:

Last night I had a good session 500 hands and ran well at about 7.5BB/100. I went into PT after I was done for a few minutes to review some hands. On the "Preferences" tab - I selected to view by a specific date (10/05/2005). Then I went back to the general tab and looked at my stats on the individual hands. The first thing I noticed that I was a loser with AA last night (I had it 2 times).

At the bottom it gave details on those two hands and I replayed them both. I identified that I made a really dumb river checkraise (when I knew I was beat) on one hand that cost me a couple BBs (yup - I called down the 3-bet too! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]).

After looking at those I clicked on the Net$$Won tab twice - the first click sorts the hands by Net$$Won high-low, the second click reverses that sort. I noticed that my biggest loser was 55. I had it a couple times as well. The first hand I flopped the under set and pumped the pot hard against a LAG. This was good to identify that I was playing good and aggressively with what was likely the best hand - even though I lost. The second hand I also flopped a set and gave too much action to a passive player (who had made a weak straight).

I found scenarios similiar to the last situation I described in other hands as well. It's not surprising to me because I already know that I get too aggressive and call down too much against passive players who show aggression.

This is just an example of what I do in terms of reviewing hands. When you're choosing hands to review I think that they should be chosen randomly. This way you have an unbiased sample. Just because you win in a particular session doesn't mean that you didn't leak away BBs in the process of winning.

Hope this helps.

[golfboy7]

Very nice.

Two things struck me by your reply to my reply.

First, I will do it as you said tonight and see what I find.

The second thing however, went a little deeper and as soon as I read it I realized holy [censored] I do that too....

"I already know that I get too aggressive and call down too much against passive players who show aggression. "

That is SO me.

Are you doing anything to combat this tendency...and if so, and if the answer is slowing down the action against this type of player, how is this affecting your profitability?

Since I play 2/4 and 4 table, I tend to value bet and value raise as frequently as possible. If I flop a set I'm gonna lose quite a bit of money before I realize I'm beat (see my other post here on first or 2nd page.)

For instance, If I have AA and I raise after a passive limper, flop comes QJ4 rainbow, and I get bet into and 3 bet, I'll slow down...but when the turn is a 2 and the river is a 4...I'm gonna value raise that river ( i don't even know if there is such a thing as a value raise)...basically I'm thinking he has QJ or some other hand which I NOW have beat A LOT more often than he has QQ or JJ.

Make sense?

Anyway thanks again for the posts, I'll keep pouring over PT tonight.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
For instance, If I have AA and I raise after a passive limper, flop comes QJ4 rainbow, and I get bet into and 3 bet, I'll slow down...but when the turn is a 2 and the river is a 4...I'm gonna value raise that river ( i don't even know if there is such a thing as a value raise)...basically I'm thinking he has QJ or some other hand which I NOW have beat A LOT more often than he has QQ or JJ.

[/ QUOTE ]
A- I'm capping the flop against all but, the VERY most passive opponents (i.e. ones that will only raise/3-bet with a set or better)

B- I'm a lot more inclined to "value raise" the river if the river card pairs the turn card as opposed to pairing one of the flop cards where our Villian originally showed aggression.

[BigEndian]

Consider getting a coach who can look over your shoulder. Other than that, it's up to your ability to analyze your own situations through hand histories.

PS. I don't coach but I know there are successful players on these boards that do.

- Jim

[golfboy7]

looking over the hand histories I found this hand, this is after all the bad beats and I was tilting bad.

How AWEFUL is this....I assume this is the kind of [censored] u mean...man i'm even ashamed to post it lol

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
[color=#666666]1 fold</font>, [color=#CC3333]Hero raises</font>, [color=#666666]7 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [color=#0000FF](2 players)</font>
BB checks, [color=#CC3333]Hero bets</font>, [color=#CC3333]BB raises</font>, [color=#CC3333]Hero 3-bets</font>, BB calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [color=#0000FF](2 players)</font>
BB checks, [color=#CC3333]Hero bets</font>, [color=#CC3333]BB raises</font>, [color=#CC3333]Hero 3-bets</font>, BB calls.

River: (11.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [color=#0000FF](2 players)</font>
[color=#CC3333]BB bets</font>, [color=#CC3333]Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

Final Pot: 15.25 BB

[pauliewalnuts]

Thats definitely a little over the top. Just call down the CR on the turn. Also, realize that most non-LAG players wont CR the turn with less than two pair.

[Harv72b]

[grunch]

I've identified one leak:

[ QUOTE ]
So I go back to 4 tabling 2/4 and I'm at an awesome table. I am not kidding at all that this table was 44 vpip, 1 pfr, and around 40 wts. It was awesome. Then this occurs. I get 99 in MP1 and raise it

[/ QUOTE ]

No matter how bad your opponents, 99 from out of position isn't going to fare too well in what will definitely be a multi-way pot; I'd just be limping on this table and playing for the set/overpair. You know that your raise isn't going to thin the field in any appreciable way (as evidenced by the Q3s that coldcalled), and you know that it will probably not be raised (or re-raised) behind you, so raising really doesn't do much for you. It sucks that you lost to a runner runner flush, and I imagine the hand would've gone the same way whether you raised or not, but this just isn't a good PFR--you have to change your game up depending on the table conditions.

As far as looking at PT stats to identify leaks, it sounds like you're doing about what I do. The (overall) stats that I look at are:

VPIP. As experienced as you are, this probably won't be an issue, but I do notice that when I run bad for an extended period of time, I often have an elevated VPIP during the same stretch. I think this is a combination of playing too many hands while trying to chase my losses (a form of tilt) and being overconfident in my postflop play after a good run.

PFR. This rarely deviates for me over any stretch of 10k hands or more, but if it does (goes way higher or way lower than normal), this probably means that you're tilting &amp; not playing your best preflop poker.

AF. By street. When I'm running cold, my AF drops like a rock; it's invariable. This is from a combination of playing scared (calling too often when I should be raising) and chasing with weak draws/overcards too much on the flop. Obviously, the latter affects my flop aggression far more than any other street, which is why I look at each street carefully. I also look to be sure that my river aggression is not too low--this often means that I'm either making too many crying calls or not betting for value enough (probably both).

WtSD/W$SD. This is as much a sanity check as a leak check--if my WtSD is in the normal range and my W$SD is low, I know that at least part of the blame goes to the cards. But if I'm not going to enough showdowns I know that I'm playing too tight/weak, and too many showdowns obviously means that I'm paying off too often when it should be obvious that I'm beaten.

If you have enough hands (you obviously do; I mean the generic "you"), it also helps to go through and look at your stats by position. You pointed out two common problems, in limping QJo &amp; KJo from EP (these hands just don't play well from OOP, and especially not in HU or 3-handed pots when it's raised behind you). A few other possible problems might be limping behind too liberally on the Button (overconfidence again), not open-raising often enough from MP &amp; LP, and coldcalling too often from the SB (it's very rarely good to call a raise cold in the SB).

Of course, the best thing to do is to pick a few hands that you think you played well &amp; post 'em on here, or look for others' hands that closely match those conditions. It's often the case that a player makes the same mistakes over and over again, all the while thinking that he's playing correctly.

I hope this was at least a little helpful, and not just rambling. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/grunch]