The Important Arena in The Debate about God.

David Sklansky · #1 09-21-2005, 10:37 PM

People, religious and non religious alike, sometimes chide me discussing God's existence probabalistically as if I was talking about the right verdict for OJ. I do that because I'm usually too lazy to precisely specify what I'm talking about. So I'll do that in a second. But in my defense I want to say that the God question I'm debating about is the same question that 95% of the world actually cares about.

It is important to understand that many of the arguments on this forum are about things that most people don't worry about. Such as could the universe have come into being without a godlike creator. Maybe it could have. So what. Because it is also certainly reasonable that it was somehow created. But what people want to know is whether that creator has anything to do with humans. While we live or afterwards. Thus showing that a creator of the universe is not illogical or even showing the stronger result that the absense of a creator IS illogical, does vey little to help people to know whether that creator deals with us. (BluffTHIS and others have made the comment along the lines of "does it make any sense that God would create us and then not look after us?" But that is obviously perfectly possible. There is nothing inherently illogical about Deism.) However as Not Ready has pointed out, to the non scientifically minded, there is really no difference between Deism and Atheism. Both result in ignoring God.

On the other side of the coin, these debates about specifically what you need to do or say to get you into heaven are also pretty irrelevant to most humans. They figure that if they are good people, pray, and thank God for their blessings, he won't punish them on a technicality (even if that technicality is wrongly believing that Jesus was just a man). Their only concern is whether THAT God exists.

And it is the existence of THAT God that needs to be debated. NOT the one who is precisely defined by Not Ready, BluffTHIS or bossjj. But neither is it the very unprecisely defined being who may have caused the Big Bang.

IS there a god who listens to prayers and sometimes answers them? IS there a god who performed miracles for the Jews in the desert? Is there a god who makes decisions about human beings after their death and implements them?

Stipulate that God created the universe. Don't worry for now about whether Jesus is the son of God. Don't worry whether God wants you to believe certain things. Those are not the important questions. The important questions are the ones in the previous paragraph. Does such a God exist?

That is the pretty precisely defined true or false question,that I have always had in mind when I say the answer is "very probably no". It IS an OJ type question. Lets call it the Sexdrugsmoney Question. Now let the debate renew.

chezlaw · #2 09-21-2005, 10:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
And it is the existence of THAT God that needs to be debated. NOT the one who is precisely defined by Not Ready, BluffTHIS or bossjj. But neither is it the very unprecisely defined being who may have caused the Big Bang.

IS there a god who listens to prayers and sometimes answers them? IS there a god who performed miracles for the Jews in the desert? Is there a god who makes decisions about human beings after their death and implements them?

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't the last part so much more important than the rest that the rest can be safely ignored by most people?

and that last past is untouchable by evidence.

chez

Jeff V · #3 09-21-2005, 10:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Stipulate that God created the universe. Don't worry for now about whether Jesus is the son of God. Don't worry whether God wants you to believe certain things. Those are not the important questions. The important questions are the ones in the previous paragraph. Does such a God exist?

[/ QUOTE ]

For me and I think most other christians I think they have to all tie together.

As far as your question"does such a Gos exist?" I say yes. How does one prove that- as of yet we can't otherwise we wouldn't be having any of these discussions. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

However I wonder- if I were to give an eyewitness account to a genuine bonafide miracle would any non-believer come to belief? Not a "hey look at that it's Mary in a potato chip" but something that couldn't be explained by science, math, physics etc? What then? Well I must be a religious kook then because obviously that can't happen right? Who if anyone would be credible enough to give such an account?...Please don't say Mason!
Jeff

#4 09-21-2005, 10:52 PM

Is tghere evidence that (all other things being equal) cancer rates are lower for those who pray? car accidents? infant deaths? etc.

In other words, is there ANY evidence that prayer actually accomplishes anything?

I suspect the answer is no.

If that is the case, then what is the point?

I think these same lines, David, and wonder how anyone could believe in a day-to-day God when there doesn't seem to be any evidence of a supreme being working day-to-day to keep tabs on the planet.

Of course, the religious trump card is always "its god's will", but in the absence of any other data, this trump card is nothing more than a copout.

David Sklansky · #5 09-21-2005, 10:56 PM

Put another way. For those who believe there is such a god. Suppose he took a vacation from paying attention to Earth for the next 100 years. How would you know?

DougShrapnel · #6 09-21-2005, 10:59 PM

"IS there a god who listens to prayers and sometimes answers them?" This is actually testable and all evidence points to no.

"IS there a god who performed miracles for the Jews in the desert? Is there a god who makes decisions about human beings after their death and implements them?" I don't know and i think faith in em without evidence is silly.

David Sklansky · #7 09-21-2005, 10:59 PM

"For me and I think most other christians I think they have to all tie together."

I doubt that. Don't you think that almost all Christians would much prefer the Jewish or even Muslim versions of God to be true rather than the Atheist's?

Jeff V · #8 09-21-2005, 10:59 PM

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How would you know?

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What are you trying to get at? That God does nothing for you?

Jeff V · #9 09-21-2005, 11:04 PM

I did'nt know an atheist could have a version of God?

Jeff V · #10 09-21-2005, 11:16 PM

I should have added- I can't answer for all christians. I think you're infering that people (in this case christians) NEED to believe in something; hence their belief in God. While the last statement is definately true for some people I don't know if most would fit.

Do I personally believe it's better to believe in "something" rather than "nothing"? No.

What about this question?

However I wonder- if I were to give an eyewitness account to a genuine bonafide miracle would any non-believer come to belief? Not a "hey look at that it's Mary in a potato chip" but something that couldn't be explained by science, math, physics etc? What then? Well I must be a religious kook then because obviously that can't happen right? Who if anyone would be credible enough to give such an account?