Opening new games / breaking old ones, question to floor/dealers

[Toonces]

Al, I'm curious as to your opinion on a discussion I have had recently with the floor at Potowatomi (Milwaukee). They have 10 tables, and a typical configuration these days are 1 $1-$5 stud game, 4 2/4 games, 3 5/10 games and 2 $200 3/5 NL games. When they opened, a 10/20 and 20/40 game was always going, but in the past 18 months, the 20/40 game became a 15/30 game, which merged into the 10/20 game, and nowadays, the 10/20 game is hit & miss.

The problem is that by the time enough people are around to play 10/20, either the rest of the tables are filled up or they don't want to hurt the games that are currently going on. I try to argue that the card room should make a special effort to provide a higher limit game even if it risks hurting one of the several lower-limit games because there is a value in having a variety of limits available, especially limits that they are struggling to keep.

As it is, I now travel to a casino an additional 1/2 hour away because I know they will have a 20/40 game running while this nearby casino may not even have a 10/20 going. I have to think that other are doing the same. Does it make good business sense to try to prevent this, or am I offbase?

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Great question. No easy answer tho, I am afraid.

It's a major downfall of the poker craze that no limit is killing the bigger limit games. The fact they're spreading 3/5 no limit is what's killing the middle limit games like 20-40 or 15-30. There is nearly as much, or more money on the table in a 3-5 no limit, but the sharks have to pay far smaller blinds, and have far more leverage to make the tourists or bad players make major mistakes. It's a sad fact, but no limit is almost "killing poker" as we used to know it.

One other factor, spreading extremely small games like 2-4 isn't really a good thing. It does keep the tables open, but they'd stay open anyway if you just ran 3-6 or 4-8. The difference is smaller rake for the house, but a higher % of the pot going bye-bye for the players. Thus you have more overall losers. Just watch the money in a 2-4 game go down the slot one day, it goes surprisingly fast. Same chit with 1-4 stud or whatever.

It's kinda frigged up but I almost yearn for the dayz back in 2000-2001 before the WPT when it was all limit poker, because at least you could find middle limit games when you wanted them. Hell, I played nothing but limit for YEARS, only with this WPT nonsense did I ever start with no limit.

As for the cardroom, they SHOULD make an effort to spread a higher limit game like 10-20. 10-20 makes more for the house than 2-4, no doubt, but takes far less off the table stakes of players (proportionately). It also provides satisfaction for the higher limit customers. In addition, with so many 2-4 tables, they can certainly spread one less and still make everyone happy. You don't want to completely alienate your middle limit players. But unfortunately, this is mostly what's happening these days. It's all 2-4 and 1-2 no limit. Bummer.

al

[steamboatin]

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It's all 2-4 and 1-2 no limit. Bummer.

al


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Limits higher than $2-4 are live and well in the midwest but i was having a discussion with one of the best players at Caesars, IN and he mentioned that the $20-40 game rarely ever went because everyone wants to play the 2-5 NL $200 minimum buy in.

Caesar's IN doesn't spread a capped buy in NL of any kind but that may change as demand increases. The limit games are very healthy except for $6-12 it hasn't taken off as well as I had hoped but it is still new to the room. I think most of the 5-10 players moved down to 4-8. The 2-4 limit always has a waiting list. The 10-20 is very healthy and often has multibple tables.

[Randy_Refeld]

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The limit games are very healthy except for $6-12 it hasn't taken off as well as I had hoped but it is still new to the room. I think most of the 5-10 players moved down to 4-8.

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As I mentioned above 4-8 consumes all the games around it. I would never spread either 5-10 or 4-8 (in a market taht can supposrt 3-6 6-12 and 4-8 of course I would spread the 4-8, but there aren't too many of those). They should combine the 2-4 and 4-8 into 3-6. 3-6 6-12 10-20 allows enough space between games that they don't kill each other but enough overlap to give players options (10-20 players will play 6-12 whilw waiting and 6-12 players will play 3-6 if they have to wait etc).

[steamboatin]

I don't have any delusions about Caesar's In being well run but it better now than when I started playing almost four years ago. the new room is really going to be nice when it is done and the atmosphere is much freindlier.

[ReptileHouse]

Interesting observations and it makes a lot of sense. What do you think are reasonable conclusions when observing a poker room which consistently spreads 3/6, 4/8, 6/12 and 8/16 as low limit games and 20-40 through 75-150 as high limit (max bet of 150 by law)? Is the implication that the local market for this casino is crowded enough that they can get away with spreading a, theoretically, sub-optimal set of games, or is there something more complicated afoot? The room in question runs about 45 tables all told.

[Randy_Refeld]

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Interesting observations and it makes a lot of sense. What do you think are reasonable conclusions when observing a poker room which consistently spreads 3/6, 4/8, 6/12 and 8/16 as low limit games and 20-40 through 75-150 as high limit (max bet of 150 by law)? Is the implication that the local market for this casino is crowded enough that they can get away with spreading a, theoretically, sub-optimal set of games, or is there something more complicated afoot? The room in question runs about 45 tables all told.

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This is a larger room that I was referring to above. It appears they have a large enough market to suppor games that are close together. If it was up to me I would try to spread a 12-24 to smooth the transition up to 20-40 and so a 20-40 player could play something closer to their limit if there is no seat in their game of choice. It is harder to draw any more specific conclusions wiht out looking at the actual game numbers (hours per day each game goes etc).

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
Al, I'm curious as to your opinion on a discussion I have had recently with the floor at Potowatomi (Milwaukee). They have 10 tables, and a typical configuration these days are 1 $1-$5 stud game, 4 2/4 games, 3 5/10 games and 2 $200 3/5 NL games. When they opened, a 10/20 and 20/40 game was always going, but in the past 18 months, the 20/40 game became a 15/30 game, which merged into the 10/20 game, and nowadays, the 10/20 game is hit & miss.

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Where they are going wrong is with the wrong smaller games. For a room this size the best progression in limits is 3-6 6-13 10-20. 5-10 should be avoided as the nature of the game with singal chip bets kills the action and provides for an al around poor experience. 4-8 shoud be avoided as it is too close to 6-12 for both to me successful. That leaves 3-6, when a 3-6 is spread there is no need for 2-4 in this size room. A case can be made for spreading a single 1-2 game, if done in conjuntion with poker lessons etc to bring new players in (right now this can probably be dropped as new players are flocking in anyway). When you progress from 3- 6-12 10-20 you are able to support the higher limit games. Most 10-20 players will play 6-12 while waiting for a seat etc. If someoen allows 4-8 into their room it consumes the limits around it and the jump from 4-8 to 10-20 is too big for players to make.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Excellent observations Randy. Note that Mirage constantly has 6-12 and 10-20, but MGM, who spreads 4-8, has trouble getting 6-12 and 10-20 to stay running.

al