1st post - weak flush draw

SeanSkill · #1 04-29-2005, 12:57 AM

First time posting a hand thought i would give it a try.
In hindsite I felt I should have bet the flush draw on the flop.
I was expecting the button to bet and I was trying to keep everyone else in the pot.
Looking back at the hand I am wondering if I should have raised preflop.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, Button checks.

Turn: (2.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds, Button calls.

River: (4.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

Final Pot: 6.50 BB

MrWookie47 · #2 04-29-2005, 01:06 AM

I think completing preflop is the thing I like most about this hand and is the only thing remotely right.

You checked the flop when you have an equity edge and there's no preflop aggressor to check/raise. Then, you bet the turn UI with no more equity edge. Finally, you bet the turn with A high on a 3x broadway board into someone who called on the turn in a small pot. What on earth made you think he's folding here?

You have quite a bit of work to do.

DMBFan23 · #3 04-29-2005, 01:06 AM

Sup sean,

this is just a little too little hand for me to raise pf here. A9s is debateable, ATs is a definite raise. so good.

yeah, bet the flop, not only do you have the nut flush draw, you have an overcard, and getting a better kickered overcard to fold would be sweet in case you spike that ace. and hey, if they call, they're giving money to your flush draw.

I generally do not fire the turn and river on blanks, once they call the turn I assume they intend to see a showdown unless a particularly scary card comes. so you can either check the turn or the river.

each has upsides, checking the turn may let you get more than one bet in on the river, but betting the turn may get a hand with some pair outs, or a better high card hand, to fold.

welcome, enjoy, and all that
-Kevin

cold_cash · #4 04-29-2005, 01:08 AM

You got the flop and turn action backwards.

Not betting out on this flop bites the big one.

What made you expect the button to bet? If he did, that would be bad for you. You want the BB to bet if you check. (But since we don't know if that's going to happen, just bet yourself. Maybe you'll get lucky and be able to 3-bet.)

fluxrad · #5 04-29-2005, 01:19 AM

Why check the turn? My understanding is that you can still bet for value with 2+ callers since you're still betting your overall odds (33%). Or are you supposed to think of a draw on the turn as 20% and only bet w/ 4 callers.

Do I understand this wrong?

SeanSkill · #6 04-29-2005, 01:20 AM

I wanted to post a hand that i felt i screwed the pooch on and looking back on this I was like what the hell were you thinking. No sense in posting good hands.

MrWookie47 · #7 04-29-2005, 01:24 AM

You got it mostly right the second time. On the turn, you're a 4.1:1 dog to hit. You actually need 5 callers for this to be solidly +EV, no other factors considered.

cmwck · #8 04-29-2005, 01:33 AM

I think you need to rethink this hand.
You say
[ QUOTE ]
I was expecting the button to bet and I was trying to keep everyone else in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
This can't be true unless you were planning on calling the button's bet. But why do that when you can just bet the flop yourself?

Don't bet the turn. It won't be for value unless five people call, which, of course, is not possible.

I don't understand the river bet either. Are you hoping to fold out something better than ace-eight high?

cmwck · #9 04-29-2005, 01:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Why check the turn? My understanding is that you can still bet for value with 2+ callers since you're still betting your overall odds (33%). Or are you supposed to think of a draw on the turn as 20% and only bet w/ 4 callers.

Do I understand this wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

You may have a 33% chance to improve, but when you bet draws for value you have to look at the odds of improving to the best hand. If you hit a spade with the nut flush draw you will pretty much win every time. If you spike an ace you may win, but it is much less likely, and if you spike an eight you will almost never win against four players.

Disconnected · #10 04-29-2005, 02:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Why check the turn? My understanding is that you can still bet for value with 2+ callers since you're still betting your overall odds (33%). Or are you supposed to think of a draw on the turn as 20% and only bet w/ 4 callers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I saw a couple others addressed this, I wanted to clarify that you may be thinking of about 1 in 3 odds of completing your flush when you're talking about from the flop to the river (that is, about 2:1 against you hitting it on either the turn OR the river). From turn to river only, though, it's about 4:1, as you said.