Anyone else find this ruleing weird... (and trip report)

[TM1212]

Alright spent the weekend at turning stone had a good time made some money, wasted some money. but first this crazy angle shoot(i guess) or stupidity by a fish (maybe) take your choice.

Alright tight weak fish with sun glasses has his chips about 4 inches off the bumper on the table, if you just took a quick look it might look like his chips were a raise, after peeking at his cards he places them behind his chips if he’s going to play. Anyway his chips have been like this for a half hour and it hasn’t interfered with play, and i probably would have never thought twice if this hand did happen.

Angle shooter (will call him that whether you think he is or isn’t) is utg and raises to 12 (1-2 100nl) he’s a good player that wouldn’t raise anything but queens or better under the gun. Folded to our friend with his chips a few inches in front of the bumper (on the button i think). He goes through his usual routine... reaches for his cards pulls them behind his chips peeks at them... then looks at the raiser. Then the angle shooter says don’t move i want a ruling, his chips are in front of his cards he’s allin.

The whole table starts saying this is bs, don’t waste out time, ect (i keep my mouth shut, while i think this is a waste of our time i have never seen a situation like this so I am no gonna say [censored]). Floor comes over and rules...

THAT THE BUTTON PLAYER IS ALLIN!!!! i am shocked, folded to the angle shooter who calls with AA of course. he wins... Has anyone else ever seen this. Seems like an angle shoot, if he called this on the first hand or warned the player, fine, but all of a sudden make this ruling. What do others think. This ever happen anywhere else.

Any quick trip report… go to tstone arrive around 7 pm (5 hour drive), get the poker room rate for the hotel play poker for 5 hours leave up about 120. I am convinced this is the worst 100max and 200max game anywhere. I mean you know everyone hand, 80 percent of the players are completely straight forward tight weak (just wait to bust there top pair sometimes middle or worse, usually cause they have no idea what’s going on), the rest are super loose and tear through buyins like water tossing there chips to you. There might have been 4 decent players playing nl ring games. Any way no major hands but one funny one,

Hero (me, about 72 in chips) picks up JJ 1 off the button, 2 limpers in front of me, ones a tight weak college kid (about 100), the other loves to see flops, weak preflop and on the flop( on 3rd buyin about a 100). (loose player is first limper to lay to reorder them)

Hero raises to 12, sb, bb, and 2 limpers call 5 to the flop (pot 60)

Flop 7 9 T rainbow

Sb and bb check, loose player bets out 10. College kid make it 35.

I think… and come to the conclusion the college kid is making a play against a bully, a ten with a big kicker at best, more likely 2 overs. I push for 25 more. Folded to the college kid… the pot is 165... 25 more to him hes getting over 6 to 1 and he… mucks lol. Almost instantly I almost died

On another note about the hand, when I declared allin, and placed the amounts out someone who didn’t grasp verbal declarations tried to call a string raise on me (I assume he saw it on tv). The dealer hesitates, before he responses, I tell my new friend to keep his mouth fing shut while he’s not in the hand… I declared allin. I restrained form choking him, anyone handle the situation different. The dealer at the table wasn’t sure what was going on…he was a real nice guy but was very new and didn’t know how to handle certain situations. (ie this one, players acting out of turn, hand discussion) I never complained cause the table was horrible, but this situation really pissed me off.

So after a few more hours I head back to the room for some booze and sleep. The next day I planned on playing in the morning tourt. Got down and register (100 plus 20) take my seat and see the starting chip, 2500 25-50 blinds start. The I see a 15 minute time clock and I choke… what a crap shoot. I feel sick. Before 1 time around the table have less then 25 bb then the 3rd, I have less then 15bb. WTF THIS IS HORRIBLE… I mean no room for skill what so ever. I had 3000 by the first break seeing no hand better then A9, an accomplishment at that.

Then when I return, I am at table 2 (have been since the beginning tables break down in order), and table 1 has 7 people and needs another. I am selected by the tourt manager, why? I have no idea, at my table there are 3 stacks shorter then mine, at my new table I have 1/6th of anyone else’s stack. No High card No anything… Anyway I get all my chips in (blinds are 300-600) with AJ get called by KJ and AT. Flop comes KKQ, no ten and I am done. I really question my being moved. Anyone know how they balance tables at tstone for the tourts, I didn’t question anything as all I could think about was how I will never play another tourt there again.

I originally was going to play all the tourts at turning stone during the week of the empire poker classic, now barring some serious structure revisions I doubt ill play in any. I guess its all cash games for me. Everyone before you sign up for there big tourts make sure you review there structure.

(didnt edit so sorry for typos tired)

[TM1212]

since i know 90% of you or so are too lazy to read the entire post (or could be doing better things i understand) I am reposting the important ruling i wanted to here if anyone had a response to so here:

[ QUOTE ]
Alright tight weak fish with sun glasses has his chips about 4 inches off the bumper on the table, if you just took a quick look it might look like his chips were a raise, after peeking at his cards he places them behind his chips if he’s going to play. Anyway his chips have been like this for a half hour and it hasn’t interfered with play, and i probably would have never thought twice if this hand did happen.

Angle shooter (will call him that whether you think he is or isn’t) is utg and raises to 12 (1-2 100nl) he’s a good player that wouldn’t raise anything but queens or better under the gun. Folded to our friend with his chips a few inches in front of the bumper (on the button i think). He goes through his usual routine... reaches for his cards pulls them behind his chips peeks at them... then looks at the raiser. Then the angle shooter says don’t move i want a ruling, his chips are in front of his cards he’s allin.

The whole table starts saying this is bs, don’t waste out time, ect (i keep my mouth shut, while i think this is a waste of our time i have never seen a situation like this so I am no gonna say [censored]). Floor comes over and rules...

THAT THE BUTTON PLAYER IS ALLIN!!!! i am shocked, folded to the angle shooter who calls with AA of course. he wins... Has anyone else ever seen this. Seems like an angle shoot, if he called this on the first hand or warned the player, fine, but all of a sudden make this ruling. What do others think. This ever happen anywhere else.


[/ QUOTE ]

[coffeecrazy1]

I think this one stinks if there is no verbal declaration...but...I can kinda see the floor's point of view on this, but still not a way to win any friends at the table.

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this one stinks if there is no verbal declaration...but...I can kinda see the floor's point of view on this, but still not a way to win any friends at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can take this off my list of places to go visit. It is clear the floor staff has no understanding of how poker is played.

[dtbog]

[ QUOTE ]
Then the angle shooter says don’t move i want a ruling, his chips are in front of his cards he’s allin.

[/ QUOTE ]

People like this make me vomit.

[dtbog]

[ QUOTE ]
It is clear the floor staff has no understanding of how poker is played.

[/ QUOTE ]

I love the place for letting me in (I'm under 21), but I completely agree. Most of the floorpeople and the management don't have a clue.

[MicroBob]

the player shouldn't be keeping his cards behind his chips in the first place and i'm surprised it didn't lead to any confusion before this.
his cards have to be in plain-view so that everyone knows he is in the hand. otherwise, his hidden cards can lead to some real problems.


that said, the other guy's angle-shoot is idiotic and the floor's decision is equally poor.


the fastish tourney structure you experienced is typical for low buy-in tourneys.
lots of online players complain about what a crap-shoot they are but they really can be +EV if you just play correctly.
turbo tourneys online are good training.


from my experience they choose the next player to be moved by who is going to be in the big-blind next.
I have never seen them high-card to move a single player now have I ever seen them do it by stack-size.
They come over and say "who's about to be the big-blind?? okay, you?? grab your chips. we're moving you to table 1."

my live tourney experience is very limited but this is how I have always seen it done.

[KenProspero]

What surprises me here, is that the dealer didn't warn the player before hand

I've played at Turning Stone a couple of times, and have always seen the dealers go out of their way to let people know that they're making this kind of mistake.

For those more experienced than I -- unfortunately, I think the floor was technically correct. Anyone disagree?

[Bremen]

[ QUOTE ]
For those more experienced than I -- unfortunately, I think the floor was technically correct. Anyone disagree?

[/ QUOTE ]
Its really not in the best interest of the game. That said it is enforced in AC as well. We had a post last year where a nit called it on his own son at the Borg (nit was not in the hand either).

[TM1212]

[ QUOTE ]
the player shouldn't be keeping his cards behind his chips in the first place and i'm surprised it didn't lead to any confusion before this.
his cards have to be in plain-view so that everyone knows he is in the hand. otherwise, his hidden cards can lead to some real problems.


that said, the other guy's angle-shoot is idiotic and the floor's decision is equally poor.


the fastish tourney structure you experienced is typical for low buy-in tourneys.
lots of online players complain about what a crap-shoot they are but they really can be +EV if you just play correctly.
turbo tourneys online are good training.


from my experience they choose the next player to be moved by who is going to be in the big-blind next.
I have never seen them high-card to move a single player now have I ever seen them do it by stack-size.
They come over and say "who's about to be the big-blind?? okay, you?? grab your chips. we're moving you to table 1."

my live tourney experience is very limited but this is how I have always seen it done.

[/ QUOTE ]

the cards were in view (maybe not from all angles) he didn’t have to many chip, between 20 and 30 5 dollar chips at all time. I really hate the ruling. but i don’t no

I agree with you many turbo tourts are +ev, but even there blind structure is descent and with the correct strategy are very +ev (have played a few online, won one on ubet)... but not this tourt and not for 100 dollar buyin (not that 100 is alot of money, but at tstone a 100 dollar tourt is there largest). The taj's 100 has over 5,000 in starting chips, and 20 min blinds and a better structure. This is the biggest tourt tstone has( minus the up coming empire tourts) and the structure is just horrible, almost no skill!!!!

I mean after 26 (7 hands first rotation, 6 hands 2nd, 6 hands 3rd, 7 hands 4th)hands The blinds were 150/300. If you have a stack here, you can tear up the field, but 26 hands to make a stack... while the super loose players have either busted out, or now have huge stack (usually after many out draws, and coin flips) which you cant compete with.

Yes I understand building a stack here is the key and loosening up and attacking with aggressive play up is a must, if you don’t see a hand, or have a single bluff go wrong, your tourts over. Now, if you get a few hands, they were easily paid off, and coupled with some steals and bluffs you could easily have a big stack... but 26 hands and your below 10bb!!!!!!! Much of this came to a surprise to me as you use to start with 3,000 chips, have 20 min rounds, a break after 4 rounds (now 6), and another round in between 4th-5th rounds. All made a huge difference, and it seems they have went out of there way to make these tourts quick, to collect there vig and get the cash games going (use the torch lounge which is usually cash)

Now I didn’t post about this tourt because a 100 dollar crap shoot is such a big deal, its not. I posted because I fear the upcoming empire poker tourts will be the similar. I haven’t seen a single structure chart for any of the tourts yet, and they expect you to put up 300,500, 1000, or 2000 dollars with out knowing. Plus the investment of your time of traveling to the middle of nowhere upstate ny.

All i am hoping is the upcoming tourts are structured to skillful play.