On Phil (H)

[JJNJustin]

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Here's what you keep misunderstanding: the WSOP only covers "important" hands in the early stages. Therefore, you are not seeing Phil playing poker. You're seeing Phil playing a HAND. If you're arguing with what Barry Greenstein has said, then you have a terrible case of ego. You have only seen TV hands which are the most exciting hands (DUH). If you think you can pinpoint ANY player's style from the WSOP coverage, you need pills.

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I didnt argue with what Barry said. Basically I agree that Phil's best game is exactly how Barry describes. I can definitely see how this strategy would work well for him. What I see from the WSOP coverage, however, is Phil deviating from this strategy to a lot of preflop bullyish all-in wars. I suppose from point of view of strategy, obviously this will happen from time to time in a tournament, depending on blinds and stack size. However, it seemed to me that Phil was doing his part to push the action, either with his talk and goading or with his raises. Just some observations.

And I agree that the selected hands broadcasted on ESPN are pretty meaningless. But from what I saw on the last ESPN broadcast of the main event, phil was like in good chip position and then got overinvolved with the AQ vs QQ, then got sucked out on by KJ, the was forced into a race with AQ vs 77. Three straight b4 the flop gambles when he was in good chip position to last quite a bit longer in the main event.

Gosh, how many times do I have to defend myself on this website. You guys are so hypercritical. If you think I was "pinpointing his style" based on the few hands in the original post, then it is you who needs pills. I wasnt pinpointing anyone's style. I was merely observing that a great champion doesnt seem to be able to get in the groove lately.


-j

-J

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Here are a few examples: against Jason Lester in 2003 with QQ vs JJ Helmuth, rather than smooth call Lesters raise, reraised to set Lester all-in preflop. Against Tomer Benvenuti, Hellmuth had AK vs TT and Phil was all-in preflop

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You seem to be recalling these hands incorrectly. Someone already mentioned it was TT vs chan's KK not 66 like you has said earlier.

Additionally, Lester open pushed for 145k preflop. Hellmuth with 225k called. Avg chip stack at this point was about 310k.

Hellmuth now with about 80k in chips is a short stack. Benvenisti raised from MP with TT. Seriously what are you expecting phil to do on the short stack with AK?

[phixxx]

SIEG HEIL

[otnemem]

wtf?

[nath]

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The very next hand, at a different table now, I'm still talking about throwing away pocket queens when I pick up pocket queens again and open for $1,800. Incredibly, the big blind moves me all in! This time, I feel that my opponent has J-J or worse, but I still fold my hand faceup. The big blind shows 7-7. I don't mind this at all. After all, I could have gone out if he hit a 7. Besides that, who in WSOP history will ever lay down Q-Q in back-to-back hands for a single reraise?

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Wow, this sucks.
If you lay down a hand when you consider yourself a 4.5 to 1 favorite because you think you're BETTER than that, you suck and you're full of yourself.

Phil has incredible talent and an equally incredible childish ego. He is actually skilled enough to make terrific reads but is so in love with playing "his way"-- that weak-tight small-pot style-- that he will make laydowns even when he "knows" he is ahead, just to prove how smart and disciplined he is. (And then he whines when he finally gets the money in and takes a beat, or when someone plays aggressively at him and forces him out of that comfort zone-- c.f. Toto Leonidas, 2003 U.S. Poker Championship; read Hellmuth's cardplayer article on the subject.)

I would rather be the "guy who busts two people in a row with QQ" than "guy who laid down QQ twice in a row to reraises", but that's just me. I'd rather win than prove to everyone how clever I am. But I don't play tournament poker for other people's approval.

Anyone comparing similar hands in a normal tourney compared to the TOC is way off-base.

The TOC only paid the winner out of 10, and thus, you are forced to get lucky and win some close hands. Finishing 2nd is worthless. This wasn't a SNG.

And Tony D didn't lay down trip Jacks against Phil. Paul Phillips has a link somewhere about this. He strongly believes the hand was fabricated by ESPN. PM him. I'm sure he could use some more mail [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[toke]

"With his skills (edge over his opponents), even playing AA preflop against a smaller pair for an all-in raise isnt worth it (4.5 to 1). His skills and potential are much greater than that to leave it up to chance to take him out of the tournament."

Is this a joke?

[JohnG]

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No, I'm saying his edge in the game is too large to risk getting busted by going all-in preflop against equal or larger stacks, regardless of his hole cards.

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You'd be wrong.

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Phil's game is in outplaying his opponents after the flop and his advantage thereafter is too great to get involved in big raising wars preflop.

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And what if his opponents are constantly raising and re-raising him?

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However, in the coverage of the main event this year, last year, and the year before, IT SEEMS TO ME, IN THE MAJORITY OF HANDS THAT THEY BROADCASTED, I dont necessarily see him doing that. I see him making big moves preflop.

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Because players exploit his unwillingness to take close gambles by constantly re-raising him preflop. Tv doesn't show the 12 consecutive times he folds to these re-raises, they just show the one time he finally makes a stand.

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Here are a few examples: against Jason Lester in 2003 with QQ vs JJ Helmuth, rather than smooth call Lesters raise, reraised to set Lester all-in preflop.

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Given the depth of money, clearly the best play.

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In all of these hands, we dont get to see any of the post-flop action because either Phil or his opponent are set all-in preflop.

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I imagine it's a depth of money issue.

And if Phil was so confident of his post flop edge, he wouldn't miss the first hour or 2 on the first day when money is at it's deepest and his edge would apparently be it's greatest against what should be the weakest players.

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The very next hand, at a different table now, I'm still talking about throwing away pocket queens when I pick up pocket queens again and open for $1,800. Incredibly, the big blind moves me all in! This time, I feel that my opponent has J-J or worse, but I still fold my hand faceup. The big blind shows 7-7. I don't mind this at all. After all, I could have gone out if he hit a 7. Besides that, who in WSOP history will ever lay down Q-Q in back-to-back hands for a single reraise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, this sucks.
If you lay down a hand when you consider yourself a 4.5 to 1 favorite because you think you're BETTER than that, you suck and you're full of yourself.

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That's Phil trying to save face. Phil has made preflop calls with AK where he could be no more than around 3-1 favourite. The AK v QT varkonyi hand comes to mind. No question, he folded QQ because he thought he was beat or in a race at best. Phil shows, and the guy then embarrassed him by showing 77. That would have messed with Phils ego for months, and his column was his way of doing something about it by rewriting history, telling the world he made the correct read of lower pair, and turning his laydown into a great accomplishment.

[ QUOTE ]
He is actually skilled enough to make terrific reads but is so in love with playing "his way"-- that weak-tight small-pot style-- that he will make laydowns even when he "knows" he is ahead,

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I highly doubt he will, not if he's 100% sure and it's a decent edge.

[James282]

Keep these coming Justin - love the analysis.
-James