Fancy play syndrome.

Jeff W · #1 11-02-2005, 04:38 AM

Villain is 25/21/3.8 over 160 hands.

Don't try this at home.

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
CO raises, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero raises, CO calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks.

River: (4.25 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets.

2+2 wannabe · #2 11-02-2005, 04:46 AM

what's wrong with it? donking this turn sucks if he doesn't have a heart, and checking the turn might induce a call from a non-heart hand

or am I missing something....

sthief09 · #3 11-02-2005, 04:50 AM

preflop is fine. flop I like a lot. turn is probably ok. you're representing a hand that's about to give up (or one of those idiots that checks with the lead after the draw hits, but I don't think that's the case here). it's doubtful he has an A. most likely he has a smaller heart or absolutely nothing. I think the nothing is a significant chunk and that extra bet from him is nice. if he bets, I don't like checkraising. I'd probably donk the river and 3-bet it. you'd have to call a cap though since he's aggressive and your line is very suspicious. the river is not as obvious as it looks since he might have checked nothing and I think he'll take a stab with most worse hands, maybe even black kings as a bluff. an A might value bet though I don't think he has one. betting still is probably best but it's not automatic IMO

sthief09 · #4 11-02-2005, 04:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
what's wrong with it? donking this turn sucks if he doesn't have a heart, and checking the turn might induce a call from a non-heart hand

or am I missing something....

[/ QUOTE ]

well he had the lead on the flop

cartman · #5 11-02-2005, 05:32 AM

I think your heart is too high for this line. The problem I think is that he will call down with any heart and any Ace and possibly a few others if you keep betting. But if you check the turn, he will often check behind you. When he does check behind, I don't think you will have gained hardly any additional river calls by feigning weakness on the turn. In other words, practically every hand that will call the river here would have called the turn and river had you kept betting. I also don't think you will induce many bluffs, because he probably knows that you aren't going to check-fold the turn here after checkraising the flop.

So it looks like to me that:

1) When he has the K of hearts you save one bet.

2) When he has something that he would have folded to a turn bet, you sometimes gain one or more bets but usually gain none.

3)When he has a worse hand that will call your river bet you usually lose 1 bet (because he would have called the turn also), and occasionally lose two or more bets when he would have raised on the turn.

That said, I'm sure you know better than I do. Where is my thinking flawed?

Thanks,
Cartman

admiralfluff · #6 11-02-2005, 05:34 AM

I see him taking a free card a lot here when you really don't want to be giving one.

admiralfluff · #7 11-02-2005, 05:50 AM

I posted this in the wrong thread
this was for the baronzeus hand.

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

ALL1N · #8 11-02-2005, 05:59 AM

This check represents an intention to showdown. I think you're much better off inducing a bluffraise by betting. Once you check he's pretty much done with any hand worse than the pair of aces you're representing, IMO.

Bet and don't disclose your hand. Then maybe CR the river.

TStoneMBD · #9 11-02-2005, 02:50 PM

ive used lines like this a bit in the recent past, but i came to the realization as all1n mentioned that checking this turn tells them that you are showing down your hand. checking doesnt accomplish much because alot of weak hearts will check behind and you only gain 1 bet off an ace when you would have gained 2.

if you checked because villain has been so aggressive over a small sample size, id rather bet and hope he tries to move me off my hand. again by checking youre saying that youre taking your hand to showdown.

Surfbullet · #10 11-02-2005, 09:01 PM

Posting blind:

I'd like a turn c/r against a laggier player, especially one who will pay off a raise...I don't think a TAGy player bet-calls an Ace here, I think he bet-folds it if he bets at all.

If it's for deception (since there are virtually no bad cards to come) and because you think he'll fold to a bet, than that's cool...I think often we are just missing value from lower flushes and Aces that will call a turn + river bet but won't pay off a c/r.

Hands that aren't paying off a turn bet anyway will rarely be able to improve to a calling hand on the river.

Surf