Two Plus Two Older Archives  

Go Back   Two Plus Two Older Archives > General Poker Discussion > Brick and Mortar

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-30-2005, 12:24 PM
Lottery Larry Lottery Larry is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: northwest of Philadelphia
Posts: 289
Default Typical rule for dealer double-burn mistake?

Dealer burns two cards, then deals flop. Mistake is noted before any action takes place.

What is typically done in a casino to rectify this?

In Robert's Rules, it says this "For example, if two cards were burned, one of the cards should be put back on the deck and used for the burncard on the next round."

Does that imply that the "incorrect" flop is left in place to play, and the second burn card is used before the turn?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-30-2005, 12:39 PM
KenProspero KenProspero is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 123
Default Re: Typical rule for dealer double-burn mistake?

Robert's Rules of Poker -- Section 5 Hold 'em -- Rules 4 and 5.

"4. If before dealing the flop, the dealer failed to burn a card, or burned two cards, the error should be rectified if no cards were exposed. The deck must be reshuffled if any cards were exposed.

"5. If the dealer fails to burn a card or burns more than one card, the error should be corrected if discovered before betting action has started for that round. Once action has been taken on a boardcard, the card must stand. Whether the error is able to be corrected or not, subsequent cards dealt should be those that would have come if no error had occurred. For example, if two cards were burned, one of the cards should be put back on the deck and used for the burncard on the next round. If there was no betting on a round because a player was all-in, the error should be corrected if discovered before the pot has been awarded."

I 'think' what this means is as follows --

If there has been no action -- the second burn card (which should have been part of the flop -- becomes a part of the flop. The last card of the flop is returned to the deck, and the deck is reshuffled.

If there has been action, the action stands. The second burn card is placed on top of the deck, and becomes the burn card before the turn.

In practice, I bet most dealers (and most players) would just let it go, and burn one more card before the turn and the river.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-30-2005, 01:03 PM
Rick Nebiolo Rick Nebiolo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,179
Default Re: Typical rule for dealer double-burn mistake?

Note that the method used in Robert's Rules is reasonable only if the cards are stuck together and it's completely certain what the order is. If this method is used a good floor must correct things in such a way that everyone understands that the card picked up from the flop is the correct card (note that this will be the card to the dealer's left if the dealer peals the deck and spreads in the standard "face down one at a time, turn over all three, then spread left to right" manner). That card would be placed face up on top the deck and used as the next burn.

A related problem you will see far more often is a four card flop. In this case the flop (and usually burn depending on the rulebook) must be picked up and re-shuffled because there is no sure-fire way to know if or what cards were stuck together when the flop was put down and spread.

Hope this helps.

~ Rick
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-30-2005, 01:05 PM
Al_Capone_Junior Al_Capone_Junior is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 3,026
Default Re: Typical rule for dealer double-burn mistake?

[ QUOTE ]
In practice, I bet most dealers (and most players) would just let it go, and burn one more card before the turn and the river.


[/ QUOTE ]

In practice, a dealer does this on my watch, they get kicked directly in the nuts. CALL THE DAMN FLOOR ALREADY, LET THEM HANDLE IT.

Your quoting Robert's rules basically answered the question.

al
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-30-2005, 01:42 PM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Typical rule for dealer double-burn mistake?

This is a stupid rule. So long as a double-burn has revealed no information about the cards in the stub, it shouldn't matter--play on. Yes, it is true that as a deterministic question, the future turn and river cards have been "changed" from what they would have been but-for the double burn, but who cares? The error advantages no player. Rules like this are for tards who get bent out of shape requesting new setups, etc.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-30-2005, 01:44 PM
Randy_Refeld Randy_Refeld is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Grand Casino - Tunica
Posts: 53
Default Re: Typical rule for dealer double-burn mistake?

[ QUOTE ]
This is a stupid rule. So long as a double-burn has revealed no information about the cards in the stub, it shouldn't matter--play on. Yes, it is true that as a deterministic question, the future turn and river cards have been "changed" from what they would have been but-for the double burn, but who cares? The error advantages no player. Rules like this are for tards who get bent out of shape requesting new setups, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason you have to correct a double burn is it is possible that the dealer saw something about a card he didn't like and wanted to keep it off the board. ALl the rules about burning etc are to protect the integrity of the game.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-30-2005, 02:08 PM
KenProspero KenProspero is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 123
Default Re: Typical rule for dealer double-burn mistake?

[ QUOTE ]
This is a stupid rule.

[/ QUOTE ]

No it isn't.

Mistakes happen, often they change the result of the hand. There is often more than one way to correct a mistake. What's important is not the specific way chosen, but that we have a rule in place before hand. That way, we limit the number of times that the floor or dealer has to use judgment in situations where one player will necessarily benefit and another will be harmed (no matter which way they decide).

So we have a Principle that applies here and in other similar situations -- if there's a mistake, we try to correct it so that the community cards actually played are the ones that would have been played absent the mistake (unless it's not feasible to do so).

The Rule flows from that Principal.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-30-2005, 02:11 PM
KenProspero KenProspero is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 123
Default Re: Typical rule for dealer double-burn mistake?

[ QUOTE ]
CALL THE DAMN FLOOR ALREADY, LET THEM HANDLE IT.


[/ QUOTE ]

Al, you're right, of course. To leave it alone unless a player makes a stink about it leaves the door wide open for someone to angle shoot the situation -- i.e., if the last card in the flop is helpful, keep quiet, otherwise, make noise. It should be corrected whenever there hasn't been action to avoid this. There are probably lots of other reasons too that I'm not thinking of.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-30-2005, 03:37 PM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Typical rule for dealer double-burn mistake?

[ QUOTE ]

A related problem you will see far more often is a four card flop. In this case the flop (and usually burn depending on the rulebook) must be picked up and re-shuffled because there is no sure-fire way to know if or what cards were stuck together when the flop was put down and spread.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand this. When dealing the Flop I deal three cards straight down, if two cards stick together so that in fact i have dealt four cards, the top card on that pile is always the fourth card regardless of where in the pile the cards stuck together. and the way I spread the flop the top card is the card on the left most of the flop. Finding the correct burn should be very easy as long as the dealer follows procedure.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-30-2005, 03:47 PM
pudley4 pudley4 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Mpls, MN
Posts: 1,270
Default Re: Typical rule for dealer double-burn mistake?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

A related problem you will see far more often is a four card flop. In this case the flop (and usually burn depending on the rulebook) must be picked up and re-shuffled because there is no sure-fire way to know if or what cards were stuck together when the flop was put down and spread.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand this. When dealing the Flop I deal three cards straight down, if two cards stick together so that in fact i have dealt four cards, the top card on that pile is always the fourth card regardless of where in the pile the cards stuck together. and the way I spread the flop the top card is the card on the left most of the flop. Finding the correct burn should be very easy as long as the dealer follows procedure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not necessarily. Imagine the top 4 cards are ABCD, in that order. If you put down the correct cards, you put A down first, then B on top, then C. If two cards stick together, you have the following possibilities (top to bottom): D, C, AB; D, BC, A; CD, B, A. There's no way of knowing which of the top two cards is correct.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:54 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.