Did I just collude?? I feel dirty...

[nevadaJACK]

I played this hand with "Dave" who is a very long-time friend and poker buddy; he's pretty solid, and we both know each other's styles inside out.

$20 / $40 live game - somewhat loose all-around.
UTG limps, Dave limps with Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], MP2 (who is tight as a friggin rock) raises, I call on button w/ 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and four of us go to flop.

FLOP: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

UTG checks, Dave bets, MP2 (preflop raiser) raises, I call, UTG folds, Dave calls.

Turn: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Dave now donkbets the turn, MP2 raises again, I'm not thrilled, but I call with my partially tainted OESD.

Now here's where things get interesting.
River is a 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] completing a backdoor flush draw. Dave quickly checks, MP2 looks noticeably digusted (as i mentioned before, he was an absolute rock and wore his cards on his sleeve) and checks to me. I'm sitting there with a pair of 9s that I'm sure are no good, and Davie is sitting on a pair of Ts having missed his flush draw that he is pretty sure are no good.

I catch his eye for what couldn't have been more than a split second, but we know each other's game so well that I felt almost positive that we were thinking the exact same thing: i.e. the only way one of us was going to take down this sizeable pot was for us to bully out MP2 who we both felt nearly certain held an overpair based on his tightness (set of jacks was also a possibility, but remote). So like clockwork, I bet my 9s and without hesitating Dave check-raises. MP2 rolls his eyes, mutters to himself and folds an obvious overpair. I call down, just because pot is so big, and I thought that it would look uber-suspicious if I had just folded, we show our 9s and Ts respectively, and MP2 loses his mind.

Frankly, I have no qualms about what we did, and when we talked about it afterward, Dave confirmed that he was thinking exactly what I had been thinking: i.e. that it was pretty clear that I couldn't beat an overpair because I hadn't raised the turn (he told me he figured me for a pair of 9s or A9s), and knowing that he also couldn't beat MP2, he hoped that I would bet the river, so he could bully check-raise to win the pot for one of us. No advance plan was made...nor did we have anything explicitly orgainized like signs that would be construed as cheating...it was just a matter of 2 players knowing each other extremely well, and in a way working "together" (for ONE of our benefits, although we didn't know whose) without communicating.

The more I thought about it, though, the more OK I felt, because (even had Dave and I not known each other) Dave's river check-raise wouldn't have been an altogether terrible play, if he thought that I was trying to make a desperation river bet with a missed draw or lower pair, if he thought he could beat me, but not MP2. But the fact that we were to some extent inside each other's heads made it feel a tad sketchy.

[Edge34]

You didn't say anything or run any kind of placement move. You just happened to know each others' games and the third player's game well enough to both know the play would work.

As long as you didn't then ask him to chop the pot with you, then you're OK in my book.

[jba]

wouldn't you do the same thing if you hated Dave's guts, but still knew his play inside and out?

[ZenMusician]

[ QUOTE ]
it was just a matter of 2 players knowing each other extremely well, and in a way working "together"

No advance plan was made

nor did we have anything explicitly orgainized

[/ QUOTE ]

Regular players do this sort of thing all the time. Very annoying
to newcomers, but not explicit collusion.

NH

-ZEN

Wow...of course, you could spin it this way: You were bluffing on the end and Dave thought you were bluffing, so he CR'ed you to force the MP out. Excellent play to make the better hand fold. Dave was just maximizing his chance of winning the pot.

NH

ScottieK

[Riverman]

This is cheating, but not by much. The only reason it is cheating is your statement about "the only way one of us is going to take it down." If you had simply suspected that you had a better hand than your buddy but not the rock, and further suspected that your buddy may raise a hand weaker than yours, thats fine. What you did is pretty despicable IMO.

[ZenMusician]

Yeah...only raise when you have the best hand...to
not do so is cheating...

My advice is play golf or another "gentleman's game"
if this is truly how you feel; not a predatory game for
money.

-ZEN

[nevadaJACK]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow...of course, you could spin it this way: You were bluffing on the end and Dave thought you were bluffing, so he CR'ed you to force the MP out. Excellent play to make the better hand fold. Dave was just maximizing his chance of winning the pot.

NH

ScottieK

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly, that's why I mentioned that in the last paragraph...even if we didn't know each other at all, it might have simply been an excellent play on his part if he thought I was bluffing with a missed draw or low pair, and he thought he could force out MP2.

[hfrog355]

Raising to bluff a player is not cheating...even if you know you don't have the worst hand, but can push a player off theirs.

[whodaman]

while your play wasn't cheating, it simply sucked. You put in 2 bets on a river where you should have put 0. Maybe thats why you feel dirty.