why do i do this? How do I stop?

phrosty · #1 11-16-2005, 07:31 PM

I need serious help:

MP1 ($97)
MP2 ($113)
MP3 ($78)
CO ($96.90)
Button ($35.40)
SB ($135)
BB ($107.85)
UTG ($172.35)
Hero ($110.90)
UTG+2 ($111.50)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
1 fold, Hero calls $1, 2 folds, MP2 calls $1, 3 folds, SB (poster) completes, BB checks.

ok-so i'm thinking "I'll limp and play these for set value, any serious aggression and I'm folding..

Flop: ($4) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, MP2 checks.

I get what I think is a pretty good flop-plan is to check raise...turn isn't too scary so I think I'll wait till the river and make my play there.

Turn: ($4) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets $3, BB folds, Hero calls $3, MP2 raises to $10, SB folds, Hero calls $7.

now I'm thinking smaller set maybe, but probably 8,9 lets see if the board pairs...

River: ($27) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $15, MP2 raises to $40, Hero calls $25.

now I think lets put out a blocking bet and hopefully he'll be happy to call..

after he reraises I put him on 8-9 95% sure but I call on the off chance he caught two pair....I'm an idiot (he shows 8-9 os)

Final Pot: $107

after sitting out for 20 minutes while i finish winning my sit n go, I come in on the BB and get this:

UTG+1 ($95.35)
UTG+2 ($162.70)
MP1 ($69.90)
MP2 ($54)
MP3 ($59.95)
CO ($117.20)
Button ($106.30)
SB ($172.55)
Hero ($95)
UTG ($106.20)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
4 folds, MP2 raises to $3, MP3 calls $3, 1 fold, Button calls $3, 1 fold, Hero calls $2.

12.50 in pot I think only 2 to call-ok good pot odds...

Flop: ($12.50) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks, MP3 bets $3, Button raises to $6, Hero calls $6, MP2 calls $6, MP3 folds.

at this point I'm thinking yeah baby-got their asses...

Turn: ($33.50) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets $15, MP2 folds, Button raises to $30, Hero calls $71 (All-In), Button calls $56.

now I'm gonna make him pay if he's on a flush draw...oops he reraises, I reconstruct the hand in my head "hmm would A-9, AT, AJ, AQ, AK limp here? Maybe AT, AJ, but would they be reraising in this spot? Probably not, so it's probably a small pair that hit his set. So what do I do based on my deep analysis? Push of course and get proven right again! (set of fives)

River: ($205.50) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $205.50

Am I the worst player ever? I make two perfect reads and go against them, once calling and the second time pushing. What is wrong with me!!! I'm not a moron, I knew what they had both times. What is it in my psyche that makes me go against my read like this? Is this something you guys have gotten past? Why do we do this? ( I know I'm not the only one)

HELP!

#2 11-16-2005, 07:46 PM

You do it because it constructs a win win situation for you. If you lose the hand, you win because you can say "I was right with my read". If you win the hand you win the hand.

Unfortunatly that's all I can add as Im not a good enough player to help anyone (even myself). See my thread if you want to see your competition for the worst player of all time award.

Bukem_ · #3 11-16-2005, 07:48 PM

What hollywood it up and FPS at every opportunity?

Start with the basics, don't slowplay in capped online games, and don't call raises OOP with crap hands.

yvesaint · #4 11-16-2005, 07:49 PM

hand 1 is gross

why check-raise with ONE person to act behind you

are you 100% sure he's gonna bet? no. you have top set on the flop. get the money in while you can.

iceman5 · #5 11-16-2005, 07:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I need serious help:

MP1 ($97)
MP2 ($113)
MP3 ($78)
CO ($96.90)
Button ($35.40)
SB ($135)
BB ($107.85)
UTG ($172.35)
Hero ($110.90)
UTG+2 ($111.50)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
1 fold, Hero calls $1, 2 folds, MP2 calls $1, 3 folds, SB (poster) completes, BB checks.

ok-so i'm thinking "I'll limp and play these for set value, any serious aggression and I'm folding..

Flop: ($4) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, MP2 checks.

I get what I think is a pretty good flop-plan is to check raise...turn isn't too scary so I think I'll wait till the river and make my play there.

Turn: ($4) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets $3, BB folds, Hero calls $3, MP2 raises to $10, SB folds, Hero calls $7.

now I'm thinking smaller set maybe, but probably 8,9 lets see if the board pairs...

River: ($27) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $15, MP2 raises to $40, Hero calls $25.

now I think lets put out a blocking bet and hopefully he'll be happy to call..

after he reraises I put him on 8-9 95% sure but I call on the off chance he caught two pair....I'm an idiot (he shows 8-9 os)

Final Pot: $107

after sitting out for 20 minutes while i finish winning my sit n go, I come in on the BB and get this:

UTG+1 ($95.35)
UTG+2 ($162.70)
MP1 ($69.90)
MP2 ($54)
MP3 ($59.95)
CO ($117.20)
Button ($106.30)
SB ($172.55)
Hero ($95)
UTG ($106.20)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
4 folds, MP2 raises to $3, MP3 calls $3, 1 fold, Button calls $3, 1 fold, Hero calls $2.

12.50 in pot I think only 2 to call-ok good pot odds...

Flop: ($12.50) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks, MP3 bets $3, Button raises to $6, Hero calls $6, MP2 calls $6, MP3 folds.

at this point I'm thinking yeah baby-got their asses...

Turn: ($33.50) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets $15, MP2 folds, Button raises to $30, Hero calls $71 (All-In), Button calls $56.

now I'm gonna make him pay if he's on a flush draw...oops he reraises, I reconstruct the hand in my head "hmm would A-9, AT, AJ, AQ, AK limp here? Maybe AT, AJ, but would they be reraising in this spot? Probably not, so it's probably a small pair that hit his set. So what do I do based on my deep analysis? Push of course and get proven right again! (set of fives)

River: ($205.50) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $205.50

Am I the worst player ever? I make two perfect reads and go against them, once calling and the second time pushing. What is wrong with me!!! I'm not a moron, I knew what they had both times. What is it in my psyche that makes me go against my read like this? Is this something you guys have gotten past? Why do we do this? ( I know I'm not the only one)

HELP!

[/ QUOTE ]

No, youre not the worst ever because Ive seen much worse, but these are horrible plays. Forget about your reads. You misplayed both hands no matter what your read was.

Aloysius · #6 11-16-2005, 08:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What hollywood it up and FPS at every opportunity?

Start with the basics, don't slowplay in capped online games, and don't call raises OOP with crap hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

1st hand - nice read - who cares? Your read seems based more on fear than anything else. You're sitting there with top set, on that board, worried about 1 hand. Yikes.

As far as the way hand 1 was played - here's a good recent thread (do you read the digests on this board? great stuff) about how fast playing a hand is usually the correct answer-

Fast Playing >>> Slow Playing or C/R Most of the Time

phrosty · #7 11-16-2005, 08:29 PM

Ok, so they were played horribly. In what way? Hand #1 sure there's a case for raising preflop, if you get called it's normally another pair or overcards and when one hits you're done with it. I've seen lots of people advise limping or seeing flops cheap with JJ (basically play like a small pair). As far as fast playing this hand on the flop the result is the same. On the other hand if I lay down on river I've saved 25.

Hand 2-pot is 12.50 and I'm in the BB, $2 to call. 6-1 aint bad, and again it should be an easy hand to get off if I don't catch a hand or run into strong aggression.

Maybe my post belongs in "psychology". The big question I have is why, when I know "Don't go broke in an unraised pot" (In fact I preach it to my buds) and I go into the hand weak with the idea that I'll fold if I run into strength, AND I make the correct read...I still call/push.

My thoughts are that it's the desperate to win a pot situation and an inability to play each hand as an individual situation. My previous hand/session is on my mind, I've just made a couple big laydowns and I ain't making another one etc etc.

C'mon guys I know I'm not the only person who ever called knowing I was beat.

The big question is who has gotten past this and what did it take/how did you learn to stop doing it????

Aloysius · #8 11-16-2005, 08:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, so they were played horribly. In what way? Hand #1 sure there's a case for raising preflop, if you get called it's normally another pair or overcards and when one hits you're done with it. I've seen lots of people advise limping or seeing flops cheap with JJ (basically play like a small pair). As far as fast playing this hand on the flop the result is the same. On the other hand if I lay down on river I've saved 25.

Hand 2-pot is 12.50 and I'm in the BB, $2 to call. 6-1 aint bad, and again it should be an easy hand to get off if I don't catch a hand or run into strong aggression.

Maybe my post belongs in "psychology". The big question I have is why, when I know "Don't go broke in an unraised pot" (In fact I preach it to my buds) and I go into the hand weak with the idea that I'll fold if I run into strength, AND I make the correct read...I still call/push.

My thoughts are that it's the desperate to win a pot situation and an inability to play each hand as an individual situation. My previous hand/session is on my mind, I've just made a couple big laydowns and I ain't making another one etc etc.

C'mon guys I know I'm not the only person who ever called knowing I was beat.

The big question is who has gotten past this and what did it take/how did you learn to stop doing it????

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't really read what happened in hand #2. Some other unlucky / bad beat situation I assumed.

Hand #1 - If you believe that building big pots with top set on the flop is the incorrect way to play then I believe you have to re-evaluate your long-term strategy.

You may be minimizing your losses the few times Villain has you "coolered" (not sure of syntax of this word), but you are clearly not maximizing your profits the many times you are ahead, and in the long-run that's losing poker.

Also please explain to me this - based on the action of Hand #1 - how exactly did you formulate a strong read that Villain flopped the nuts? Such a strong read, in fact, that you are kicking yourself for calling with the 3rd nuts getting over 3:1 to call?!

lautzutao · #9 11-16-2005, 08:54 PM

Hand1 raising preflop isn't the problem. It's not betting the second nut hand on the flop and letting it get checked through. What result is the same? You KNEW that villian had 98 and called him anyway on the turn and river? You can't look back after the results of the hand and say "I shouldn't bet because I was beat."

phrosty · #10 11-16-2005, 08:57 PM

Well he limped preflop so I don't put him on a big pair or big ace, then he checks flop but reraises the turn on a baby club, hmm smaller set protecting or maybe two pair, finally he reraises on river but not enough that I'm thinking bluff-more like value bet with nuts.

Sure maybe fear played some role in it-but I think logically its either a smaller set, two pair or str8 and with the possible hands out there I'm not thinking two pair plays this way.

I guess your advising pushing all in on flop or turn which would have lost my whole stack but your saying long run I'm more likely ahead so it's a plus EV play?

I appreciate your advice just trying to clarify and you still haven't addressed the question of why "we" sometimes call/push "knowing" we're beat.
sooo...what could it be?