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  #71  
Old 12-19-2005, 09:56 PM
hmkpoker hmkpoker is offline
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Default Re: Why did Jesus have to die?

Item #4 contradicts item #1.
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  #72  
Old 12-19-2005, 10:00 PM
MaxPowerPoker MaxPowerPoker is offline
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Default Re: Why did Jesus have to die?

[ QUOTE ]
[The bible] denies an omnipotent god.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I was giving you too much credit. This statement is asinine. The bible does not deny an omnipotent god, it just says more about him than that he is omnipotent.

-Zapp
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  #73  
Old 12-19-2005, 10:03 PM
chezlaw chezlaw is offline
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Default Re: Why did Jesus have to die?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[The bible] denies an omnipotent god.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I was giving you too much credit. This statement is asinine. The bible does not deny an omnipotent god, it just says more about him than that he is omnipotent.

-Zapp

[/ QUOTE ]
Saying more about god in a way that says he had to do something a certain way is to deny his omnipotence. Address this if you wish but insults don't make it less true.

chez
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  #74  
Old 12-19-2005, 10:19 PM
hmkpoker hmkpoker is offline
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Default Re: Why did Jesus have to die?

[ QUOTE ]
No false dichotomy. There's another alternative - god is omnipotent and the bible is wrong. That you believes the bible to be true is up to you but it denies an omnipotent god.

[/ QUOTE ]

God could be omnipotent, then say through scripture that he needed Jesus to die. Then he'd be omnipotent AND a liar [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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  #75  
Old 12-19-2005, 10:21 PM
MaxPowerPoker MaxPowerPoker is offline
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Default Re: Why did Jesus have to die?

[ QUOTE ]

Saying more about god in a way that says he had to do something a certain way is to deny his omnipotence.

[/ QUOTE ]

The implication of what you are saying is that an omnipotent god cannot make truthful statements about what he will or will not do.

God has said that he will not forgive sins apart from bloodshed.

To salvage God's omnipotence, for some reason you feel compelled to restrict him from making such a claim.

It is more accurate to say that God WILL NOT forgive sin apart from bloodshed rather than that he CANNOT if we are simply dealing with the divine attribute of omnipotence.

It is more accurate to say that God CANNOT forgive sin without bloodshed if we are dealing with the divine attribute of truthfulness since he has told us that he will not.

The God that put forth his son Jesus is both omnipotent and truthful--attributes that are not at odds with one another.

-Zapp
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  #76  
Old 12-19-2005, 10:26 PM
chezlaw chezlaw is offline
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Default Re: Why did Jesus have to die?

[ QUOTE ]
The implication of what you are saying is that an omnipotent god cannot make truthful statements about what he will or will not do.

[/ QUOTE ]
No it isn't.

[ QUOTE ]
It is more accurate to say that God WILL NOT forgive sin apart from bloodshed rather than that he CANNOT if we are simply dealing with the divine attribute of omnipotence.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thats it. God didn't have to do it. Jesus didn't have to die for anything.

chez
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  #77  
Old 12-19-2005, 11:38 PM
MaxPowerPoker MaxPowerPoker is offline
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Default Re: Why did Jesus have to die?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It is more accurate to say that God WILL NOT forgive sin apart from bloodshed rather than that he CANNOT if we are simply dealing with the divine attribute of omnipotence.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thats it. God didn't have to do it. Jesus didn't have to die for anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is more to reality than an omnipotent God. The fact is that man is sinful and that God is righteous. This righteousness of God has as a necessary component the fact that sacrifice is necessary for forgiveness of sin in order that we might be reconciled to God. God's plan of the salvation of sinners required the suffering of Christ.

Act 17:2 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,
Act 17:3 explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, "This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ."

Jesus himself says:
Luk 24:25 ..."O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!
Luk 24:26 Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?"

I understand that you do not accept the authority of scripture. I do and I accept that it is accurate in all that it says about God and his creation. Scripture says that the wages of sin is death and I accept that as truth about God's creation. I accept it when scripture says that the wrath of God can be satisfied by the sacrifice of his son for those who believe. Why did Jesus have to die? Scripture explains why and I have made an attempt at explaining it myself. To say that God didn't have to sacrifice his son carries with it more implications. Namely that the world would not be the way it is. Given that man is sinful and the wages of his sin is death, and given that God is rightous, it was necessary for him to put forth his son to save those who believe. My answers to the question why did Jesus have to die, is an answer based in the reality of our predicament as sinners in the face of a holy and righteous God. If you guys want to start from some other place than that, then have at it.

-Zapp
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  #78  
Old 12-19-2005, 11:42 PM
chezlaw chezlaw is offline
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Default Re: Why did Jesus have to die?

[ QUOTE ]
I understand that you do not accept the authority of scripture. I do and I accept that it is accurate in all that it says about God and his creation.

[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly and you put that before anything including god's omnipotence.

Anyway we're going round in circles. Hopefully if an omnipotent god exists he won't care that you constrain him anymore than he cares that I don't believe in him at all.

chez
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  #79  
Old 12-19-2005, 11:47 PM
hashi92 hashi92 is offline
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Default Re: Why did Jesus have to die?

so your basically saying this is your belief because this is what the bible says. were saying if you sat back and thought about it jesus dying is really unnecessary.
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  #80  
Old 12-19-2005, 11:58 PM
MaxPowerPoker MaxPowerPoker is offline
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Default Re: Why did Jesus have to die?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I understand that you do not accept the authority of scripture. I do and I accept that it is accurate in all that it says about God and his creation.

[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly and you put that before anything including god's omnipotence.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I believe that what God says about himself is perfectly true and I also believe equally that God is omnipotent.

And yes, it does seem that we are going around in circles.
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