State of Iraq

[ACPlayer]

You should learn to be more precise in your writing so that people can be precise in their reading.

Regarding the Left being right more or the right being left (behind) more those are subjective opinions. You offer them often, usually without definitions. Amazing!

[jokerswild]

I tried thinking of you as an intelligent follower of Neocon fascism. It doesn't work. Any man that believes that the Speaker of the House is a Senator certainly understands history. LOL!

If you had lived in Germany in the 30's, you'd have supported the Reich with enthusiasm. The Nazis, and fascists in general, are right wingers. I know that comes as a surprise to your feeble mind.

Thinking of you as a stupid, greedy, jackboot licker gets the money.

[MMMMMM]

You are really losing it, jokerswild.

I've put in a reservation for you at the Four Paws Resort so you can recuperate.

Poor PsYcHo-ScHnAuZeR. You're a good dog, really. Everything is going to be OK. Don't let that mean man bite you.

[nicky g]

"I am totally amazed at the number of people who don't recoil at the idea of the maintenance of the former totalitarian tyranny. Don't you guys realize that there is always a price to be paid for overthrowing tyranny? Freedom isn't free. Iraq is in one of its toughest periods now but even so it is better than 6 months ago and will get slowly better. THAT'S certainly better than another 30 years of tyranny. Sheesh. "

According to the Aon report, it's more dangerous than it was a year ago.

The question is at what point the price no longer becomes worth it. IMO given that Saddam was contained and weak prior to the war, and the war has seen indicators such as death rates, unemployment and malnutirition spiral upwards in its aftermanth, not even counting its direct consequences in terms of death and destruction, of the war and the fallout for other nations, that point was passed quite some time ago. Tere's also the question of the quality of the freedom that has been paid for, one so far marred by curfews, the large-scale displacement of civilians, the police state-style behaviour mentioned above, disappearances and torture and so on. I suspect however that there is no point at which the war becomes not worth it for many of its supporters. It reminds me of an argument we had here about Russia, when someone said that Russia was better off economically than prior to the collapse of Communism. I pointed out that, more than a decade later, it actually wasn't better off on any economic indicator, which earned me a barrage of accusations of short-sightendness, simply because I pointed out an indisputable fact, because one day we're told it will be better off. Perhaps. The fact is that Iraq is still in a mess caused directly by the architects of the war and the people they charged with the running of the country in its aftermath, at a cost of tens of thousands of lives and hundreds of billions of dollars that could have been used to save many lives elsewhere. One can only hope that the new government will do a better job if it ever gets off the ground properly and can act without US interference.

[MMMMMM]

Nicky I agree that costs must play a part in the consideration. However these costs seem like relatively small costs when weighed against the costs incurred elsewhere in struggles for freedom. Be on your guard against being too short-sighted. Costs appear immediately but whether a country has decades--or even centuries--ahead of it in freedom or in tyranny is a BIG, BIG thing.

Freedom is worth more than pure material things, too. I'd rather be a bit poorer and free than a bit richer and danger of my own government or without rights to free speech, etc. Hopefully you agree and can see the merits of this, not just at present, but for the ever-extending future.

[nicky g]

I don't think there's much merit to talking in centuries as noone can know how long the situation in Iraq would have continued without a war, or how long the current "freedom" will last.

"I'd rather be a bit poorer and free than a bit richer and danger of my own government or without rights to free speech, etc."

Sure. But I'm not sure I'd trade living under a tinpot dictatorship for open sewers in the streets, no electricty in one of the hottest places in the world 50% or more of the time, a massively increased chance of a violent death and not being able to work or feed my family properly in return for the chance to live in a free chaotic and corrupt semi-police state. A decrease in material wealth is one thing, large increases in sickness and mortality rates is another.

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
Sure. But I'm not sure I'd trade living under a tinpot dictatorship for open sewers in the streets, no electricty in one of the hottest places in the world 50% or more of the time, a massively increased chance of a violent death and not being able to work or feed my family properly in return for the chance to live in a free chaotic and corrupt semi-police state. A decrease in material wealth is one thing, large increases in sickness and mortality rates is another.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah but wouldn't you trade it if you only had to endure a relatively short time of stuff like that? Plus the conditions you mention are not affecting all Iraqis.

[andyfox]

"You guys will be shown to be on the wrong side of history (as the Left nearly always is)."

Depends what you mean by "the Left." Communism was/is clearly on the wrong side of history. But if you mean the Democratic Party, i.e., the left side of America's mainstream political specturm, it has clearly been on the correct side of history in our country. It fought the Cold War (dragging the conversative, isolationist Right Republicans along kicking and screaming) and the Civil Rights Movement and oversaw the making of America into the mightiest political and economic power the world has ever seen.

I think it's far too early to tell whether the rebuilding of Iraq is going to be successful or not. The original post is useful as an antidote to the rose-colored optimism of others who claim things are going swimmingly. Since our government is on the "swimmingly" side, a view of the other side of the argument is important. Far too early to tell which side is closer to the truth. One suspects that, as usual, it lies somewhere in the middle.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's far too early to tell whether the rebuilding of Iraq is going to be successful or not.

[/ QUOTE ]
Definitely.

[adios]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks again boys.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I sense your outrage at the insurgents and I share that outrage towards the insurgency with you. Glad to see that at least you understand and grasp the criminal and evil nature of the Iraqi insurgency, the insurgency that targets innocent civilians; the insurgency that rejects the right of the Iraqi people to choose their government; the insurgency opposed to democracy; a mindless insurgency with no political purspose other than to oppress free people and destroy their institutions. Congrats nicky didn't know you had it in you.