KK and I don't raise pre-flop

cold_cash · #1 09-18-2004, 01:40 PM

Table was relatively aggressive, but no one had struck me as maniacal. (I also hadn't been sitting for very long when this hand came up.)

How's my flop and turn play? What about the river bet?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, MP2 3-bets, MP3 caps, Hero calls, Button calls, 2 folds, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (25.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 bets, MP3 calls, Hero calls, Button calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (15.75 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 players)
UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 bets, MP3 raises, Hero 3-bets, Button folds, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls $2.50 (All-In), MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

River: (30.25 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players, 1 all-in)
UTG checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets, UTG folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

GrunchCan · #2 09-18-2004, 01:45 PM

Bet/raise preflop and on the flop. Fancy play usually just ends up costing bets.

SoCalPat · #3 09-18-2004, 01:53 PM

There is no logical explanation for not raising this flop.

1. There's a flush draw on the board.

2. There's a straight draw on the board.

3. A raise would likely get you the button.

4. You'd love to thin this field. KK unimproved rarely holds up against 5 other players. And every player to act behind you is right to call with any piece of the flop or any draw. If they want to play any further, you should make them pay the max.

Quit worrying about extracting the maximum with this hand -- you have an overpair. Against six others, it's highly vulnerable. You want to take this sucker down now, or at least reduce the number of hands out there against you.

cold_cash · #4 09-18-2004, 02:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
There is no logical explanation for not raising this flop.

1. There's a flush draw on the board.

2. There's a straight draw on the board.

3. A raise would likely get you the button.

4. You'd love to thin this field. KK unimproved rarely holds up against 5 other players. And every player to act behind you is right to call with any piece of the flop or any draw. If they want to play any further, you should make them pay the max.

Quit worrying about extracting the maximum with this hand -- you have an overpair. Against six others, it's highly vulnerable. You want to take this sucker down now, or at least reduce the number of hands out there against you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think all these points provide a very logical explanation for not raising the flop.

I wasn't slowplaying.

Rudbaeck · #5 09-18-2004, 02:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Quit worrying about extracting the maximum with this hand -- you have an overpair. Against six others, it's highly vulnerable. You want to take this sucker down now, or at least reduce the number of hands out there against you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising the flop does nothing for protection here. If button has as little as J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] he'd be correct to call. 29.5:2 is odds to draw on almost anything.

A flop raise would be purely for value, and it could be argued that it's the right thing. Hero's pot equity is way above 16.67%, so getting the money in is right.

I like the original posters play. He defended his hand vigorously on the turn, and got in a very nice value bet on the end.

The turn is the only place hero _can_ defend his hand.

DeathDonkey · #6 09-18-2004, 02:23 PM

This is a good spot to wait until the turn to raise cold_cash, you did good. That Jack sucks though as JJ is a very likely holding given the preflop action. I hope you won but fear you scared AA into submission on the turn.

-DeathDonkey

Zetack · #7 09-18-2004, 04:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]

4. You'd love to thin this field. KK unimproved rarely holds up against 5 other players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rarely? Really? Tell you what, I'll take KK, you take any other hand of your choice besides AA and give us four other opponents. I'll be happy.

--Zetack

Trix · #8 09-18-2004, 04:27 PM

I like, noone will fold the flop anyway.

Entity · #9 09-18-2004, 05:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
There is no logical explanation for not raising this flop.

1. There's a flush draw on the board.

2. There's a straight draw on the board.

3. A raise would likely get you the button.

4. You'd love to thin this field. KK unimproved rarely holds up against 5 other players. And every player to act behind you is right to call with any piece of the flop or any draw. If they want to play any further, you should make them pay the max.

Quit worrying about extracting the maximum with this hand -- you have an overpair. Against six others, it's highly vulnerable. You want to take this sucker down now, or at least reduce the number of hands out there against you.

[/ QUOTE ]
Just about anyone is correct in calling a raise on the flop (getting ~15:1). I like waiting until the turn here.

Rob

Festus22 · #10 09-18-2004, 05:51 PM

As I recall, SSHE has a similar hand in the "2 Overpair Hands" section (I think). The example was raising aces on the flop in a monster pot because your pot equity is huge but just calling with 10's. Kings comes pretty close to the aces example so I'd venture a guess and say it probably doesn't matter THAT much either way. I still would probably play it like you did though.