Is poker an ethical way to make a living?

[ianlippert]

In another thread I diagreed with a poster about the ethics of making money playing poker. Here is what I had to say:
[ QUOTE ]
Poker is an entertainment industry. An online professional basically owns his own casino, and pays a rake to the site as 'rent'. He is providing a service. The goal of any entertainment business is to capture as much of peoples disposable income as possible.

In many areas this is done by creating a desire for a product so that when the consumer aquires that product it fulfils the desire and makes them happy. When nike gets $100 for a pair of shoes they spent $1 making, they are making a profit by taking advantage of human psychology.


[/ QUOTE ]

So what do ppl think? Does the professional poker player provide anything to society?

[Bodhi]

The professional Poker player provides:

Rake money for the casino so that they can pay their employees.

Action for the hobbyists and others seeking entertainment.

Entertainment for the general public at promotional events.

Some very good poker books for us to read and enjoy.

Honestly, I don't see much difference between a professional poker player and a professional athlete. Both of them make a living doing something totally impractical but which fulfills the desire of the public.

If you want to say that those desires aren't really ours, that they've been implanted by advertising and propaganda industries, then a lot more professions besides professional poker players would be deemed unethical.

[toots]

Fair enough.

Then again, I've always considered professional athletes to be little more than pimples on the butt of society. I s'pose I should say the same about movie stars, but at least they do a decent job of showing themselves to be spoiled superficial twits.

What I find infinitely more interesting is what seems like a nearly universal attraction for males wanting to become professional poker players. (Insert Freud here.)

[popniklas]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Svar till:</font><hr />

What I find infinitely more interesting is what seems like a nearly universal attraction for males wanting to become professional poker players. (Insert Freud here.)

[/ QUOTE ]

That is indeed interesting. But I don't think it is very strange. Every other kid wants to be a basketball/hockey/something star. And that dream can last until it becomes evident that the kid in question never will be able to achieve that.

When it comes to poker, it is much easier (compared to, say, basketball) to fool yourself that you are better than you really are. Hence the dream can last a lot longer.

Why do people want to be professional athletes/poker players in the first place? Well... it seems cool to be a professional athlete, to win competitions, be better than other people and prove that to yourself and others etc. Gives a sense of achievement. Obviously one could dig a lot deeper into that, this is just my two cents.

[UttBuggly]

[ QUOTE ]

What I find infinitely more interesting is what seems like a nearly universal attraction for males wanting to become professional poker players. (Insert Freud here.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Toots,

That is an interesting statement. Not competely accurate, based on the "guys" I play poker with, but not completely wrong. I just recently finished Feeney's "Inside the Poker Mind" and thought that "The Illusory Winner" was something to ponder on.

Most of my friends, some of which are very good players, do NOT want to become pros. I, on the other hand, think I probably will...after some more "education".

I don't care for Limit or ring games in general. I live for tournaments. I do well. I've spent the last year or so playing a ton of online events. I've done well enough that I have been playing with OPM (other people's money)for almost a year. Decided to try "live and in color", so last month, I played in 3 casino tourneys, including a WSOP satellite at Harrah's. 7th in my first, modest profit, 3rd in another and the WSOP deal. Three final tables in 3 trys is good, but I haven't quit my day job. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

So, even though I want to "turn pro", I'm not completely deluded into thinking I'm all that.

Semi off-topic...Feeney states that tournament poker isn't "real poker". I disagree. I'm playing real cards with real people and earning real money at a tourney. Playing daily in a casino would seem like a job. And I like to travel, so there's that as well.

OK...super long post...sorry, but I don't think the generalization applies and that's what I am saying.

[toots]

Thanks for the reply.

Yeah, it's not 100% accurate, but this week, it seems like a reasonable approximation. For some reason - that right now eludes me - the notion of "turning pro" has an amazing pull for a lot of people, and those people tend to be male.

To me, it seems like a great way to really screw up an otherwise nice hobby.

Of course, there's the old saying that "All American Men are great drivers, great lovers" - and great poker players? - "just ask them."

From this, it seems like so much about poker seems to boil down to "representin' a big johnsom." Everyone here is a winning player, or at least says so. Suggesting that someone's a poor player, or suggesting that someone move down in limits, is often greeted with the sort of enthusiasm otherwise reserved for the Freudian theory of "castration anxiety."

There are a few other occupations that seem to end up taking residence in a similar place in my mind. Gold prospecting, for instance. The best a person can do is wreck the local economy, especially if the currency is based on gold. Trying to make a living by having a "rock band" would be another. The best you can do there is one more "Me, too" among entertainers, although I can certainly be convinced of the usefulness of that long before I can of gold prospector.

They all seem to have the common thread of "working real hard to avoid work." By that, I mean that there seems to be some specially powerful "Representin' a big johnson" pull to the notion of making a living in such a way as to make a minimal addition to the GNP.

Funny, because when someone decides to become a doctor because he likes playing god, it doesn't even cause a blip because regardless of the motivations, everyone can see the value that a doctor adds to the general population.

[darydarling]

I'm not a professional player I only play recreationally, however I am of the opinion I could care less if people think it's ethical or not just based upon the profession.
I live here in Vegas and have the pleasure of knowing a lot of poker players some who are pros and in the groups I hang with I have never met a better class of people.
And for so called reputable businessmen, professions and people...let's take a look at how some of that has worked out.
Enron.
Lincoln Savings and Loan.
Arthur Anderson, And Company.
WorldCom
History is filled with such stories but in the business world those stories are like cockroaches in the light.
If you see 1 there are a 1,000 hiding.
We are in a business where we are not stealing anyone's money, people make a choice to come and play and understand the risks even if they don't understand the game...because they come to "gamble."

[darydarling]

Oh and to answer your question on whether or not he / she provides anything to society....
There are more ways to provide to society than just what your job is.
More importantly is he taking anything away from society?
And the anwer is just like in all walks of life, professions etc...people dependent and not quite clear cut.

[tylerdurden]

[ QUOTE ]
There are more ways to provide to society than just what your job is.

[/ QUOTE ]

In general, this is wrong. If you're not getting paid for it, then society doesn't value it. Obviously, there are some exceptions, but they are few and far between (Also, note that you can get "paid" in things other than money - but again, this is a rare case).

Is poker an ethical way to make a living? Inherently, it's neither ethical nor unethical. It depends on the player.

A more interesting question (which above posters are digging at) is "does a professional poker player contribute to society?" The only meaningful way to answer this is to determine of playing poker contributes to GDP. I'm not convinced either way, but the answer is probably "no." In any case, it doesn't really matter, as any individual poker player's GDP contribution will always be near zero (relatively), because playing poker can never create massive amounts of wealth (e.g. you don't have any product you can export).

[XChamp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There are more ways to provide to society than just what your job is.

[/ QUOTE ]

In general, this is wrong. If you're not getting paid for it, then society doesn't value it. Obviously, there are some exceptions, but they are few and far between (Also, note that you can get "paid" in things other than money - but again, this is a rare case).

Is poker an ethical way to make a living? Inherently, it's neither ethical nor unethical. It depends on the player.

A more interesting question (which above posters are digging at) is "does a professional poker player contribute to society?" The only meaningful way to answer this is to determine of playing poker contributes to GDP. I'm not convinced either way, but the answer is probably "no." In any case, it doesn't really matter, as any individual poker player's GDP contribution will always be near zero (relatively), because playing poker can never create massive amounts of wealth (e.g. you don't have any product you can export).

[/ QUOTE ]

So clergymen and musicians contribute nothing to society too? What about my retired grandparents?