Do you make this call?

paperchamp · #1 05-31-2005, 12:22 AM

No read on BB except he had only been seated for 5 hands and had already played one hand poorly (check/called to the river with middle pair).

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em (10 handed) BB .25
converter

MP3 ($10.45)
Hero ($82.55)
Button ($35.1)
SB ($20.35)
BB ($18.15)
UTG ($24.5)
UTG+1 ($25)
UTG+2 ($56.8)
MP1 ($45.21)
MP2 ($18.85)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.1.
3 folds, MP1 calls $0.25, MP2 calls $0.25, 1 fold, Hero raises to $2, 2 folds, BB calls $1.75, MP1 calls $1.75, MP2 calls $1.75.

Flop: ($8.10) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets $2, Hero raises to $6, BB calls $6, MP1 folds, MP2 folds.

Turn: ($22.10) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)

BB goes all-in $10.15

imported_anacardo · #2 05-31-2005, 01:19 AM

Hmm. Tough one. Your only read indicates passivity, and this is a classic, fishy passive-aggressive play with any ten. On the other hand, this could easily be a desperation bid by a short stack, and your hand is at least slightly hidden. A smaller pocket pair is statistically more likely, and with the pot laying 3:1, I think this has to be a call. I think your hand is good often enough here for a call to be fairly profitable.

theredpill5 · #3 05-31-2005, 01:24 AM

Yeah, I think you probably have to call this. Keep in mind that 3 other people saw the flop with you which increases the likelihood that someone did have a ten. You were still a favorite preflop, though, of course.

This is more like 50/50. I think the fact that he did play a hand poorly earlier actually increases the likelihood that he has the ten because poor players call raises with all kinds of junk.

kevin017 · #4 05-31-2005, 01:40 AM

2:1 odds, i'm sure you're winning at least 1/3 of the time, easy call

imported_anacardo · #5 05-31-2005, 01:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
2:1 odds, i'm sure you're winning at least 1/3 of the time, easy call

[/ QUOTE ]

3:1. There was $22 in the pot before Villain went all-in for $10 more. Makes this even easier.

DoubleDown · #6 05-31-2005, 02:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: ($8.10) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets $2, Hero raises to $6, BB calls $6, MP1 folds, MP2 folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you trying to accomplish with the flop raise here?
1-fold out better hands?
2-charge draws?
3-find out where you are at in terms of your hand's strength?
4-other reasons (hopefully people can add those that i've forgotten)

IMO your flop raise didn't accomplish any of those objectives - it was too weak. if you are going to raise here it needs to be more.

I'm not sure what the best line here would be. I hope others can chime in. The line that I would think to use in this instance might be to simply call MP2's initial bet- and i think this is based on the fact that he is short-stacked. if i raise him a decent amount, then he is folding out hands that i beat (i.e. 99, 77, 66, etc.) and pushing with the hands that i lose to (any T, plus the boat) ... should he push after i raise it will be such a small amt back to me that i will undoubtedly call.

the bad thing about just calling his bet is that it is giving him and other people in the hand good odds to draw to a flush/str8. however, should a scare card hit and someone comes alive i can easily get away from the hand, not being extremely committed.

i think the thing that is making it tricky for me to think about this hand is the fact that MP2 is short-stacked and if i raise he only plays when he has me beat ... but when i dont raise he will put in more $$$ both when he has me beat AND when he is beat (i.e. 88,99,draw that doesnt get there)

i realize the line i suggested seems really weak- i'm having a tuff time making heads or tails of this situation. i hope others can comment on this

imported_anacardo · #7 05-31-2005, 02:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Flop: ($8.10) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets $2, Hero raises to $6, BB calls $6, MP1 folds, MP2 folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you trying to accomplish with the flop raise here?
1-fold out better hands?
2-charge draws?
3-find out where you are at in terms of your hand's strength?
4-other reasons (hopefully people can add those that i've forgotten)

IMO your flop raise didn't accomplish any of those objectives - it was too weak. if you are going to raise here it needs to be more.

I'm not sure what the best line here would be. I hope others can chime in. The line that I would think to use in this instance might be to simply call MP2's initial bet- and i think this is based on the fact that he is short-stacked. if i raise him a decent amount, then he is folding out hands that i beat (i.e. 99, 77, 66, etc.) and pushing with the hands that i lose to (any T, plus the boat) ... should he push after i raise it will be such a small amt back to me that i will undoubtedly call.

the bad thing about just calling his bet is that it is giving him and other people in the hand good odds to draw to a flush/str8. however, should a scare card hit and someone comes alive i can easily get away from the hand, not being extremely committed.

i think the thing that is making it tricky for me to think about this hand is the fact that MP2 is short-stacked and if i raise he only plays when he has me beat ... but when i dont raise he will put in more $$$ both when he has me beat AND when he is beat (i.e. 88,99,draw that doesnt get there)

i realize the line i suggested seems really weak- i'm having a tuff time making heads or tails of this situation. i hope others can comment on this

[/ QUOTE ]

To be fair, he knocked out the initial bettor & one other. 3x raise doesn't seem TOO weak here, though on a scary board you might need to bump it to $8 or $10. The real problem as I see it is the size of villain's stack. The flat call / open-push is awfully fishy, but he's going to make it with any hand he wants to play, whether ahead of you or behind. If Hero makes it $10 and Villain comes over the top for the rest of his stack, Hero still can't really get away. What can you do? Fold? I sure don't like that option. Flat call? Even worse. I can't see this hand playing out any other way, if Villain's game.

Also, I think DoubleDown may be confusing MP2 and BB. MP2 was the initial bettor - BB flat called the raise.

DoubleDown · #8 05-31-2005, 01:51 PM

hopefully bump-worthy

paperchamp · #9 05-31-2005, 07:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
hopefully bump-worthy

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll reply to what you wrote in a bit, don't have the time right now. Thanks for the input!

paperchamp · #10 06-01-2005, 12:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Flop: ($8.10) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets $2, Hero raises to $6, BB calls $6, MP1 folds, MP2 folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you trying to accomplish with the flop raise here?
1-fold out better hands?
2-charge draws?
3-find out where you are at in terms of your hand's strength?
4-other reasons (hopefully people can add those that i've forgotten)

IMO your flop raise didn't accomplish any of those objectives - it was too weak. if you are going to raise here it needs to be more.

I'm not sure what the best line here would be. I hope others can chime in. The line that I would think to use in this instance might be to simply call MP2's initial bet- and i think this is based on the fact that he is short-stacked. if i raise him a decent amount, then he is folding out hands that i beat (i.e. 99, 77, 66, etc.) and pushing with the hands that i lose to (any T, plus the boat) ... should he push after i raise it will be such a small amt back to me that i will undoubtedly call.

the bad thing about just calling his bet is that it is giving him and other people in the hand good odds to draw to a flush/str8. however, should a scare card hit and someone comes alive i can easily get away from the hand, not being extremely committed.

i think the thing that is making it tricky for me to think about this hand is the fact that MP2 is short-stacked and if i raise he only plays when he has me beat ... but when i dont raise he will put in more $$$ both when he has me beat AND when he is beat (i.e. 88,99,draw that doesnt get there)

i realize the line i suggested seems really weak- i'm having a tuff time making heads or tails of this situation. i hope others can comment on this

[/ QUOTE ]

With the flop raise I wanted to get heads up with the bettor and knock out anybody with a flush draw or overcards. The bettor (MP2) actually folded but BB called after checking.

I really feel like I played the hand okay on the flop. I felt like if I raised any bigger and was re-raised I would have a tougher decision to make. With the bet I made, I could get away from the hand if he re-raised me or if he fired hard at the turn (which he did). So this is what brought me to my predicament of calling or folding on the turn.