An Interesting Spot With Pocket Fours - Taj 50-100

[Jeffage]

So I go over to Taj on Saturday and we start up a nice 50-100 game 5 handed. Great action game. Anyway, this hand comes up...was I the action here or did I play it properly?

I have black fours in the cutoff. Very bad, loose player raises UTG. Terrible player coldcalls. I coldcall. The button folds and now the SB, a young player who seems pretty aggro, possibly decent player, but a little over the top 3-bets. The BB drops, UTG calls, limper calls and I call. 4 players to the flop, $650 pot. The flop comes J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. The SB now checks (I figure either a monster or nothing or possibly something like 77). UTG bets, limper folds. I'm getting 14-1 to call so I'm going to see the turn (esp. with implied odds), but there is a slight chance I'm ahead here. UTG would bet a wide variety of hands if checked to. So I decide to raise. The SB now check 3-bets, UTG calls and I of course call. Comments? Results later.

Jeff

[rudedog78]

I would fold pre flop, you dont have the odds to call...

[bigmiiiiike]

I like your reasoning here IF the players are really as you describe. I don't know about your logic giving the preflop 3bettor 77, this seems like a flop he would bet out with. I'd say its either AK, AA or JJ. Raising the flop is a decent play if you have a strong read, but I'd say even if the guy has AK that after 3betting preflop, he would bet out on the flop (if he's aggressive enough to 3bet out of position, "over the top" as you describe, wouldn't he most certainly bet out on any flop?) Your logic is okay, but I think you overanalyzed the situation here and trapped yourself into losing far more than you had to.

[Jeffage]

Ok, maybe it wasn't that interesting. Thanks for replies, more are welcome. The turn came the beautiful 4. SB bet, limper calls, I raise, SB reraises, limper calls, I cap and they both call. They also both call my river bet. SB had AA, limper didn't show.

Jeff

[SA125]

Monday morning QB'ing aside, I knew you were toast on the ch/3 bet. Nice peel.

[Dantes]

where's the interesting part

[Your Mom]

totally standard

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
I would fold pre flop, you dont have the odds to call...

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Parlay of loose terrible opponents with one open raising and one cold-calling is suicide for a very small pair. Flop will usually come two or three overcards, rarely a set and you can expect it to hit at least one opponent who you won't be able to shake.

In this spot it's much better to have a hand that is often dominated by a tighter player's open raise (e.g. AJo). Such a hand has at least a 35% chance of flopping a pair (as opposed to 11.4 % for a set) and against these guys domination isn't likely.

Question: Doesn't anyone fold small pairs to a raise/coldcall anymore?

~ Rick

[Jeffage]

In a standard game, I can see folding. But in this case, I know it will be 4 ways to the flop if I coldcall because at least one of the blinds will come. I can't really foresee a reraise out of the blinds. So if I know at least one of the blinds will come, I'm getting close to 4-1 and if I flop a set, I will get lots of action. Once I didn't flop a set, I had to try to play well and I did the best I can (though my flop play is debateable).

If we're talking about a 10 handed game where someone raises utg and everyone folds to me, yes I agree the fold would be clear preflop.

Jeff

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
In a standard game, I can see folding. But in this case, I know it will be 4 ways to the flop if I coldcall because at least one of the blinds will come. I can't really foresee a reraise out of the blinds. So if I know at least one of the blinds will come, I'm getting close to 4-1

[/ QUOTE ]

"If" one blind calls on average you are getting only a little more than 3 to 1 depending on which blind calls.



[ QUOTE ]
and if I flop a set, I will get lots of action.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but you need at least one more player in before coming in for two bets. Some of the more experienced players (i.e., the oft unfairly maligned "Jim Brier types") might want two more players. IMO one more opponent is barely break even.



[ QUOTE ]
Once I didn't flop a set, I had to try to play well and I did the best I can (though my flop play is debateable).

[/ QUOTE ]

Note that middle pair (77 to TT) is much better here since you will get many flops with only one or two overcards AND miss your opponents. This rarely happens with a tiny pair.



[ QUOTE ]
If we're talking about a 10 handed game where someone raises utg and everyone folds to me, yes I agree the fold would be clear preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

A fairer comparison would be a ten handed game with a middle to early position raiser AND a cold caller. Most of us would rarely cold call here with a tiny pair.

~ Rick