I screwed this one up.. BB Defense with 88

waffle · #1 12-16-2005, 05:31 PM

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (6 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

I have no read. Villian is unknown.
Well, I have a preliminary stats read against him but nothing else is known. The stat read is that he is a 53/18/4 after 17hands.

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 4 folds, Hero calls.

If I'm not 3betting PF, I'm going to checkraise a favorable flop.

Flop: (4.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)

The one is kind of ugly but it will do, only one card in the playing zone and it's not an ace.

Hero checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, UTG 3-bets, Hero calls.

After his 3bet I'm a little bit worried. But.. after calling PF in the BB and check raising the flop versus a PFR, I'm very used to being 3bet when the PF raiser has a hand like 2 overcards. I don't know why they do it, but I've seen it a lot.

He could have AQ, he could have a pair better than mine, he could have two high cards that whiffed, he might also have 2 spades. I don't know the relative frequencies of each but I think I'm good enough to continue.

Turn: (5.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, Hero calls.

Well, a good-ish turn card, let's keep going.

River: (7.25 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets,

I was planning on seeing a showdown but I hate this river card. I can't imagine being good often enough, so...

Hero folds.

Lay into me.

#2 12-16-2005, 05:46 PM

Hi waffle, this is a tough hand. I don't think you played it terribly. One thing I'll say though is that with middle pocket pairs I definitely prefer 3-betting pre-flop vs calling and check-raising the flop. Compare a hand like 88 to a hand like KJ. With KJ, we're likely to have a better idea of where our hand stands after we see the board cards. This isn't always the case but it often is. E.g. if the flop comes Q69, we can probably give up on the turn or even after he 3-bets. However, if the flop comes K69, we can be very confident about our hand. Whereas with 88, we don't know where we stand with either of these flops.

Essentially, with KJ our hand will often be weak enough in relation to the board that we can muck it easily. This will rarely be the case for a hand like 88. As more cards come out, our hand is likely to look dicier and dicier, but it will still be strong enough that we don't want to fold. So with mid PPs I like to 3-bet pre-flop and lead the flop, and do my best to get the hand over with as quickly as possible. It is very rare that a turn or river card will help your pocket 8s - it is more likely to help your opponents big cards. So I say get your money in while you're ahead and try to win without a showdown.

With KJ I like the calling and check-raising the flop line better. It is more likely that the board cards will improve your hand, and you won't mind seeing turn and river cards as much.

Not sure if this is right, but it's something I've been thinking about lately.

bobhalford · #3 12-16-2005, 06:10 PM

I like the 3-bet pf play, because if UTG has a really strong hand, like QQ+, he will cap it. With AKo he might cap it and with worse he will call. The hand plays a bit differently then because you have a better idea where you stand on the flop and have influenced villain to be a bit less confident on the flop when he misses.

By 3 betting preflop you also have fold equity on the turn when villain find himself with unpaired cards and sees a board he doesn't like. The way you played it, I might even fold the turn since he most likely has a made hand and is not going nuts with the flush draw. If you call you might be drawing to 2 8's not to mention that any face card in addition to the Ace could mean big trouble on the river.

I think with 77, it might be a call in the BB, but 88+ I 3-bet, especially when it's heads up.

JoshuaD · #4 12-17-2005, 03:44 AM

I 3-bet this preflop everytime. People are too stupid and pay off too well to bother getting tricky here.

I don't C/R this flop. I don't want to be 3-bet here. I'd rather check/call, check/call, and possibly donk a bad river. It gets more in when we're ahead and less when we're behind.

On this board I would check/call the river as well.

kapw7 · #5 12-17-2005, 09:20 AM

88 is a great hand HU but you need to put your money early. So 3-bet this. It's unlikely (impossible?) to make him fold any overs, A-hi etc with a C-R but it's more likely to get 3-bet with these hands since the C-R will look so suspicious.
The river fold is OK.