cap this flop when fish get aggressive? - Page 3

chief444 · #21 04-25-2005, 10:52 AM

OK, now figure in the range of hands a very passive player is betting here. And I question whether it even includes a bare A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. So if your read is right I think A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] + a pair is on the better end of the range for you. Just my opinion. My point being these things need to be considered rather than just "I have an overpair therefore I raise". I expected some disagreement on this which is why I bumped it so we could discuss it some.

If someone has pokerstove loaded, maybe they could run the range. I'd include A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] + pair hands, made flushes, two pair hands and sets. We can add just a bare A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and even K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in just to be fair.

chief444 · #22 04-25-2005, 11:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Rushing to give a flop bettor credit for an A high flush seems ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]
Never what I said. All I'm saying is I feel you're behind the range of a "very passive" player here in terms of equity and the raise opens you up to a 3-bet.

TomBrooks · #23 04-25-2005, 11:13 AM

I like the way you played it. Since Villian is so passive, he probably has the flush already, and your redraw is not even to the nut or 2nd nut flush. The board pairing on the turn gives you filling up outs, but that is not enough to raise against a made flush that might be higher than your flush redraw, methinks.

TomBrooks · #24 04-25-2005, 11:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'd just call the flop. It's heads up. You're bet into by a "very passive" player.

[/ QUOTE ]
I like the flop raise while the bets are still small because when Villian three bets you and then bets out on the turn, it tells you he likely has the flush made already. Now you know where you likely stand and you can call the turn rather than raise there as you would have liked to do if he was still drawing.

JerseyTom · #25 04-25-2005, 11:37 AM

If he's truly "very passive afterwards" (i.e. postflop), there's no way he's 3-betting the flop with a worse hand than yours.

Among his possible flop 3-betting hands, the turn card only vaulted you ahead of something donktastic like J4. He could be betting like mad to protect a baby flush.

When he leads the turn, you're getting 2:8.66 to call down; you do have the Q-high flush re-draw, but can you feel comfortable raising if you make it?

All that said, I probably play the same as you. I just can't fold an overpair to the board and I can't find a fold either.

Tom

Bizot · #26 04-25-2005, 11:53 AM

I think this all depends on what "really passive" means post flop. I've seen fish call down 2 pair and rarely do I see them value bet something like this? I smell flush or some retarded 2 pair here, the 7 either saved you or sunk you here?

Out of curiousity what was he playing like this?

Tom Martell · #27 04-25-2005, 11:56 AM

AQo, no spades....

Don't quite understand where his maniacal play came from. He fell right back into line after this hand.

Bizot · #28 04-25-2005, 11:59 AM

wow that is really wierd, maybe he was trying to get you to fold thinking he had the spades there. Or he was thinking "AQ is a good hand it should be winning here"

I do think more often than not he will show a flush or some dumb 2 pair there. I still think I am folding this turn or river if my flush doesnt' come in?

Tom Martell · #29 04-25-2005, 12:01 PM

I think he has top pair often enough to make calling down correct. Folding this on the river almost certainly has to be wrong; you are getting 9 to 1 to call. Your queens will hold up unimproved that often, either through his 2 pair getting counterfeited from the 7 or his A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] draw missing.