Philosophy Book Club: Ribbon Cutting

[RJT]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm confused about the choosing one's own damnation through obeying god. Does that mean eternal damnation or just doing something that damns us in our own eyes but which will be rewarded with eternal salvation?

[/ QUOTE ] If I am correct about what prelude 3 is talking about, I think that SK is saying that when you try to look at God thru our own morals/values/perseptions we create a speration between us and our faith. So much is the seperation that SK thinks that man should, if he wishes to be faithful, not look at God thru his own morals, values, or perceptions. So SK says to toss aside the whole "It's my son, and I'd give my life for him.", becuase that would seperate one from faith.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think my next post agrees with you.

[RJT]

Chez,

I took some liberties with your quotes:

[ QUOTE ]
If all my reason tells me that the act god is ordering me to carry out will lead to my damnation…then I will cast aside my reason and put my faith in god.

[/ QUOTE ]

In version 2 He doesn’t put his faith in God. He does not cast aside his reason. More precisely, his doubt overcomes his faith:

“…in silence he drew the knife -- then he saw the ram which God had prepared. Then he offered that and returned home. . . . From that time on Abraham became old, he could not forget that God had required this of him. Isaac throve as before, but Abraham’s eyes were darkened, and he knew joy no more.”

Then for V3:

[ QUOTE ]
If all my reason tells me that the act god is ordering me to carry out will lead to my damnation…

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what SK is calling sin in version 3:

“It was a quiet evening when Abraham rode out alone, and he rode to Mount Moriah; he threw himself upon his face, he prayed God to forgive him his sin, that he had been willing to offer Isaac, that the father had forgotten his duty toward the son. Often he rode his lonely way, but he found no rest. He could not comprehend that it was a sin to be willing to offer to God the best thing he possessed, that for which he would many times have given his life; and if it was a sin, if he had not loved Isaac as he did, then he could not understand that it might be forgiven. For what sin could be more dreadful?”

For version 4:

[ QUOTE ]
If all my reason tells me that the act god is ordering me to carry out will lead to my damnation… then I will cast aside my reason and put my faith in god.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or more precisely -

[ QUOTE ]
If somehow I knew that the act god is ordering me to carry out will lead to salvation then I will obey god.

[/ QUOTE ]
(Albeit, with a despair and tremor.)

"It was early in the morning, everything was prepared for the journey in Abraham’s house. He bade Sarah farewell, and Eleazar, the faithful servant, followed him along the way, until he turned back. They rode together in harmony, Abraham and Isaac, until they came to Mount Moriah. But Abraham prepared everything for the sacrifice, calmly and quietly; but when he turned and drew the knife, Isaac saw that his left hand was clenched in despair, that a tremor passed through his body -- but Abraham drew the knife."

RJT

[RJT]

Perhaps better still:

If somehow I had faith that the act god is ordering me to carry out will lead to salvation then I will obey god.

Or as Abraham does/is in the bible:

I have faith that the act god is ordering me to carry out will lead to salvation, so I will obey god.

And how Abraham does in v 4:

I have faith (with a bit of despair and tremor) that the act god is ordering me to carry out will lead to salvation, so I will obey god.

[RJT]

Any thoughts on this partial quote from the first paragraph of the Prelude:

“…for what his mind was intent upon was not the ingenious web of imagination but the shudder of thought”?

RJT

[DougShrapnel]

[ QUOTE ]
I have faith (with a bit of despair and tremor)

[/ QUOTE ] My reading of this causes me to think that SK is stating the the despair and tremor, are incorrect. It is what caused Isaac to lose his faith. I think I may have to rewrite my summary of perlude 4. Faith without despair is the ideal that SK admires.

[Scotch78]

[ QUOTE ]
Any thoughts on this partial quote from the first paragraph of the Prelude:

“…for what his mind was intent upon was not the ingenious web of imagination but the shudder of thought”?

[/ QUOTE ]

My guess is that "the ingenious web of imagination" refers to the third-person story of Abraham and "the shudder of thought" means Abraham's personal, subjective experience.

Scott

[RJT]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Any thoughts on this partial quote from the first paragraph of the Prelude:

“…for what his mind was intent upon was not the ingenious web of imagination but the shudder of thought”?

[/ QUOTE ]

My guess is that "the ingenious web of imagination" refers to the third-person story of Abraham and "the shudder of thought" means Abraham's personal, subjective experience.

Scott

[/ QUOTE ]

78,

Your answer certainly makes sense in the context of what SK talks about and that he uses the Abraham story as his focal point in his talk. In other words, imo, you are correct.

I sure as heck wouldn’t have connected the two – his words and your explanation - on my own. SK sure talks funny.

RJT

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps better still:

If somehow I had faith that the act god is ordering me to carry out will lead to salvation then I will obey god.

Or as Abraham does/is in the bible:

I have faith that the act god is ordering me to carry out will lead to salvation, so I will obey god.

And how Abraham does in v 4:

I have faith (with a bit of despair and tremor) that the act god is ordering me to carry out will lead to salvation, so I will obey god.

[/ QUOTE ]
Got it, thanks

chez

[Scotch78]

[ QUOTE ]
the act god is ordering me to carry out will lead to salvation

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to disagree with this part. Though a perfectly valid Christian interpretation, this is not an accurate Jewish reading. While it is true that Kierkegaard was Christian, Abraham was not and salvation would not have figured into his spirituality. Furthermore, SK does say in reference to the man who studies the story of Abraham, "if he had known Hebrew, he perhaps would easily have understood the story and Abraham."

In Judaism one obeys g-d, and that's that. Reward and punishment do not figure into the religion like they do in Christianity and Islam.

Scott

[RJT]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the act god is ordering me to carry out will lead to salvation

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to disagree with this part. Though a perfectly valid Christian interpretation, this is not an accurate Jewish reading. While it is true that Kierkegaard was Christian, Abraham was not and salvation would not have figured into his spirituality. Furthermore, SK does say in reference to the man who studies the story of Abraham, "if he had known Hebrew, he perhaps would easily have understood the story and Abraham."

In Judaism one obeys g-d, and that's that. Reward and punishment do not figure into the religion like they do in Christianity and Islam.

Scott

[/ QUOTE ]

You are correct 78. Good catch. Although, Abraham did not have in mind Salvation; he does have in mind, or at least the God of the OT has shown, rewards. I think we can substitute reward for my word salvation then. Whether or not Abraham had reward in mind or simply obedience, I am not sure (now that you brought up your point). I am not sure this is relevant to the discussion, but is good you pointed this out, 78.

Btw, the reason we got on this tangent was my quote from Weil. Although her quote is not totally analogous, I think it helped (me at least, after chez’s posts) to understand SK a bit better.

RJT