Experiment with raised pots - Page 4

amoeba · #31 06-22-2005, 04:56 PM

I'm depending on board texture to determine what I do.

I think at levels up to the 400s, most players still won't notice that you are doing this based on board texture and not what you hold.

At the point at which they do notice this, perhaps the next step is bet or check based on game theory.

jedi · #32 06-22-2005, 05:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
1) often times they are folding even when I'm unimproved and I have the best hand.

Then they get the chance to draw with infinite odds to beat you

2) yes they will call with a worse hand but if they call my turn bet then I slow down on river anyways so I get 2 streets of bets regardless of which way I go.

They are getting infinite odds to beat you, plus you're not necessarily getting 2 streets of bets. You may be betting on 2 streets, but not getting 2 streets of bets, if you catch the distinction.

3) relatively uncoordinated board. if they have oesd, they will call my flop bet anyways and if scarecard comes, I have no idea whether they called my flop bet with top pair thinking I have overs or whether they called on straight draw.
Again, you give them infinite odds to catch

4) I'm not sure how I get more info. if called what do I know? it could be a oesd, gutshot, top pair, mid pair, or set.
You're also giving up initiative. I'd take a stab at bluffing you off overcards if you're showing weakness on the flop

5) you won't play for your whole stack with overpair type hands anyways and monsters won't get paid off unless opponent also has monster.
True

what I gain is

1) opportunity to trap.
Trap with what? 1 pair? You just said that it won't get paid off unless you both have monsters.

2) opportunity to catch free card when I have gutshot draw or oesd and raised preflop with suited connectors
Yes, you do, but you're also giving up semi-bluff opportunities if you always check the flop. If you bet the flop, it might get checked to you on the turn when you can take the free card. If the opponent folds, then that's fine too

3) opportunity to represent missed overs with suited connectors that hit when an A or K hits the turn.
And how exactly is this different from betting the flop?

4) controlled pot size for those instances where my opponent hits a set and I have overpair.
Yes, but you'd probably find out about this when a check-raise comes

5) opportunity to actually hit with my missed overs for free.
And an opportunity for them to bluff you out of a pot when you don't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your points aren't bad, I just think that checking the flop every time is giving up too much when the opponent will fold.

SonOfWestwood · #33 06-22-2005, 05:09 PM

Forgive me if this was discussed in already, but I didn't find anything about it when I read the thread.

What about the -EV associated with letting them improve to the best hand by giving them a free turn card, when they would have folded to your flop continuation bet?

For example, if they limp, you raise w/ AK, they call with something QJ. Flop is 962r and you check behind him. Turn is a J or Q. Wouldn't that be a huge mistake, to let them draw out on you for free?

amoeba · #34 06-22-2005, 05:26 PM

1. thats fine. Its equilized with the times I'm drawing with infinite odds.

2. its 2 streets of bets regardless. I don't see the issue. the difference is that in the I bet the flop case, I win 2 streets of bets at max if I have the best hand at showdown but I lose much more than 2 streets of bets if I have the worst hand at showdown even if villain just value bets his monster on the river. in the I check the flop case, I win 2 streets of bets if I have the best hand at showdown and I lose just 2 streets of bets if I have the worst hand at showdown.

3. if he'll call you with a draw anyways, then unless if you can read him perfectly and not give significant implied odds when he hits nor get bluffed off (perhaps inadvertently because he is on TP and still puts you on missed overs) when a scare card comes, checking the flop is fine.

4. that bluff you make on the turn when I have overpair makes it profitable for me to check the flop, no? you would have folded with nothing had I bet the flop or check raised me with nothing hoping to fold out my overcards yes? neither of which I like very much. if I call your turn bet , what do you do on river? bet again? if you check the river, and I bet, you have to fold because my missed overs might still be best hand.

1. the trapping thing was said by previous post and I was just repeating it but its akin to what I said above. its more inducing bluff rather than trap.

2. I don't care about semibluff opportunities because I've already gotten a free card. that free turn card might also give you additional backdoor draws, etc... in addition, against an aggressive opponent, I can't call a check raise should I bet. if my flop bet has little folding equity, which I feel on flops like this it has reduced folding equity than say an ace high flop, then the value of the semibluff goes down.

3. because if I bet the flop, I can't call if they raise me and if they just call and an A or K pops, I have to fire a much bigger round on the turn bluffing with a nothing hand.

4. there are many lines with a set that don't involve a check raise that makes plenty of money. most of them don't involve a checkraise on the flop.

5. covered already.

amoeba · #35 06-22-2005, 05:30 PM

sure. this is a problem.

But this is evened out by the times you draw to the turn for free.

In my opinion, basically everything evens out except the times when you have overpair and they have something that beats overpair on the flop.

TheWorstPlayer · #36 06-22-2005, 06:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What about the -EV associated with letting them improve to the best hand by giving them a free turn card, when they would have folded to your flop continuation bet?

[/ QUOTE ]
What about the +EV associated with letting them improve to the second best hand by giving them a free turn card, when they would have folded to your flop continuation bet?

All of the counterpoints being raised in this thread are valid. All of them have their own counterpoints. Basically, there are pros and cons of betting and there are pros and cons of checking and the EV of each depends very highly on your hand, the flop, the opponent, your table image, and a bunch of other things. What I personally think would be a lot more useful than continuing to discuss this in the abstract is for someone (say, the OP) to post a hand or two where they check the flop HU in position after raising preflop and then we can discuss the details of the postflop play from that point on. Anyone?

jonnyUCB · #37 06-22-2005, 06:39 PM

You should learn to read the board with position. When the flop is uncoordinated like 5KK or 248 you're not betting? Single overcard?

A lot of your raising hands should either be premium hands or drawing hands so you will hit a good % of the time where you can semibluff or value bet, especially with your wide range. Build the pot (and your draw) with position and mix it up and do check the flop. I do agree with you in that you can punish flop passivity by taking a free card but this will only be with GS draw or bottom pair draw, low flush draw, etc.

It seems like you want to avoid the flop ch/r, but if you raise standard vs a single limper pf (which is probably the only time you should be "mixing it up"), the pot wont be so large that you have to fold to a ch/r necessarily if you have a good draw and deep stacks. If you're afraid that you can't see where you are when the opponent ch/r you on the flop (such as the opponents you think will do this with air), then you need to switch tables.

If you're playing anything but TAG poker the targets are passive players who overplay TP hands and who pay off large when you hit your draw. Checking leaves you lost and doesn't build big pots.

soah · #38 06-22-2005, 06:48 PM

My experiment with always checking these flops did not last too long. I've had the following thoughts:

1) If your opponents always (frequently) get to see four cards instead of three, it makes it more correct for them to call your raises with various drawing hands (pairs, connectors, suited stuff)

2) If your opponents play well, their bluffing frequency will be close to optimal once you give up control of the betting. Also, strong players will be leading into you on the flop fairly often. Checking is usually give them a free card instead of yourself.

There are certain types of players that this can work well against -- or perhaps it would be better to say that this works well against many poor players... the ones that either bluff way too much, or not nearly enough. You can let the aggressive players bet your hands for you while keeping the pot size under control (which is unlikely to happen with a flop bet) and you can let the weak players tell you exactly where they are at in the hand so you can make good decisions against them.

jonnyUCB · #39 06-22-2005, 06:50 PM

This happened before I read the thread.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (5 handed) converter

Button ($108)
SB ($135.55)
BB ($464.70)
UTG ($558.20)
Hero ($494.25)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises to $14, 1 fold, SB calls $12, BB calls $10.

Flop: ($42) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $24, SB raises to $60, BB raises to $200, Hero folds, SB calls $61.55 (All-In).

Turn: ($387.55) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($387.55) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $387.55

Results in white below: 
SB has Kd 9s (two pair, kings and nines).
BB has Kc Ks (three of a kind, kings).
Outcome: BB wins $387.55.

TheWorstPlayer · #40 06-22-2005, 06:53 PM

From up above:
[ QUOTE ]
But then there are all the times that you hit YOUR gutshot for free on the turn when he was going to check/raise the flop

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry, man. That $400 woulda felt sweet if you checked the flop through. Of course there are the pots where you would have lost $400 if you didn't bet your KKK on the flop and they caught their gutshot on the turn....