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#61
04-15-2005, 04:24 PM
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Re: Marginal Hand #4 Playing a passive table (TURN)
[ QUOTE ]
Others have commented about the flop raise and turn bet, so I won't harp on those as well. Instead I'll point out how your play so far is a good illustration of how much easier it is to navigate 22 in EP than J8s. That's a lot of chips that have been spewed on our way to a showdown already, on a table that we were originally confident of being able to outplay postflop ... [/ QUOTE ] But on loose and passive tables isn't it usually "he with the best draw wins"? Granted this hand didn't turn out as loose as usual but when I'm playing with a lot of players seeing the flop I'd rather have a strong draw than a "top pair" hand like KJo. Oh, and I'd like to add that the people who say this is an EASY fold preflop are probably the same ones who have a VP$IP of 15% and complain on here that they can't crush these low-limit callathons because people are always calling down their top pair and sucking out on them on the river. John 
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#62
04-15-2005, 04:25 PM
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Re: Marginal Hand #4 Playing a passive table (TURN)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Does anyone else check the turn here? [/ QUOTE ] *grunching* I like the turn bet for sure. So far, the SBs play reeks of 86s to me. [/ QUOTE ] Dude, the turn bet is pretty bad. HU I'd make it but you don't have folding equity against one guy who called two cold on the flop and another who led into you and called your raise, and you aren't getting value odds on a bet. Rob
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#63
04-15-2005, 04:28 PM
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Re: Marginal Hand #4 Playing a passive table (TURN)
[ QUOTE ]
But on loose and passive tables isn't it usually "he with the best draw wins"? [/ QUOTE ] No, usually the best made hand wins on the flop, but the best draw wins often enough to make money as well. Generally the equity is split between the best made hand and the best draw, and the split is determined by how good the best made hand is. Rob
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#64
04-15-2005, 04:30 PM
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Re: Marginal Hand #4 Playing a passive table (TURN)
I don't mean to take your word as gospel. However, while I've been led to be convinced that some of the other preflop calls posted in this series are good, when I see a player who's obviously more experienced than me struggle to make a preflop call profitable, I think it's pretty clear that it's -EV with good, but still imperfect, postflop skills.
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#65
04-15-2005, 04:34 PM
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Re: Marginal Hand #4 Playing a passive table (TURN)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Does anyone else check the turn here? [/ QUOTE ] *grunching* I like the turn bet for sure. So far, the SBs play reeks of 86s to me. [/ QUOTE ] Dude, the turn bet is pretty bad. HU I'd make it but you don't have folding equity against one guy who called two cold on the flop and another who led into you and called your raise, and you aren't getting value odds on a bet. Rob [/ QUOTE ] Wheee, my first real smackdown from a dark post. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I don't understand why the turn bet is so bad. There's 6 BB in the pot, and you've got 4.1:1 for the last club. So, throw another bet in there for value since the SB checked to you and showed weakness.
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#67
04-15-2005, 04:36 PM
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Re: Marginal Hand #4 Playing a passive table (TURN)
[ QUOTE ]
I definitely fold this preflop. It may be borderline or just south of borderline for Entity and pure cash money for you, but any preflop call that's borderline at best for him is definitely -EV for me. I've come to see the merit in some of the other hands you've posted, but this one I respectfully disagree. I definitely appreciate you putting yourself out there like this and opening yourself up to some debate. [/ QUOTE ] I mentioned this in another thread and I don't think anybody noticed it. The more you can practice playing these marginal hands for these relatively cheap stakes the better you will get with them when you are forced to play them OOP from the BB. The less money you lose from the blinds the more money you make. A penny saved is a penny earned. A stitch in time saves nine (never knew what that meant lol). [ QUOTE ] On the flop, is getting one or more cold callers more likely than three or more callers? It's close, given your description, but I think I'd call because of how much it'd suck to raise, see 4 folds and then a 3bet. Also, I check the turn here. [/ QUOTE ] Did you see my reasons I gave for raising the flop earlier? Do you agree with any of them or no?
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#68
04-15-2005, 04:38 PM
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Re: Marginal Hand #4 Playing a passive table (TURN)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Does anyone else check the turn here? [/ QUOTE ] *grunching* I like the turn bet for sure. So far, the SBs play reeks of 86s to me. [/ QUOTE ] Dude, the turn bet is pretty bad. HU I'd make it but you don't have folding equity against one guy who called two cold on the flop and another who led into you and called your raise, and you aren't getting value odds on a bet. Rob [/ QUOTE ] Wheee, my first real smackdown from a dark post. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I don't understand why the turn bet is so bad. There's 6 BB in the pot, and you've got 4.1:1 for the last club. So, throw another bet in there for value since the SB checked to you and showed weakness. [/ QUOTE ] You practically answered your own question. If you are putting more money in the pot than you expect to win on any given round it is not a value bet. The only justification I can see for betting is if you think they both will fold or if for some reason you think you can make the money back on the river when you hit by concealing the fact that you're on a draw.
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#69
04-15-2005, 04:46 PM
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Re: Marginal Hand #4 Playing a passive table (TURN)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Does anyone else check the turn here? [/ QUOTE ] *grunching* I like the turn bet for sure. So far, the SBs play reeks of 86s to me. [/ QUOTE ] Dude, the turn bet is pretty bad. HU I'd make it but you don't have folding equity against one guy who called two cold on the flop and another who led into you and called your raise, and you aren't getting value odds on a bet. Rob [/ QUOTE ] Don't you think "pretty bad" is kind of a strong term here considering the flush draw, dblgut, and maybe a jack?
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#70
04-15-2005, 04:46 PM
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Re: Marginal Hand #4 Playing a passive table (TURN)
No, I don't agree with them. The pot is already protected from someone who has a single overcard to a pair of 9's and a single club, assuming no one has an ace. They are wrong to call a single bet. A hand like K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] X has only about 3 outs, getting at the very best 10:1, and that's assuming that no one has an A. I think you want them calling, because they are making a mistake to do so. Any of your J "outs" you claim to be buying with your raise are worth nowhere near a whole SB.
There aren't really any hands here that'd be correct to call one bet, but wrong to call two.
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