10-20 Ad8d 3 bet on button

[StoneAge]

I have been in the game a short time new people. 3rd to act posts. Folded to poster who checks, CU-1 (or is it +1)raises, I three bet SB calls BB and poster fold, original raiser makes it 4 bets, I call, SB calls. Flop Axx, raiser bets, call, call. Turn x, raiser bets, call, call. River x, check, check, check. Sorry I don't remember the other cards they were all below a ten, no flush draws (can't even remember if I had a diamond on the flop). Looking back I would have played it differently, what do you think?

[mike l.]

i cant imagine playing it any differently, w/ the exception of value betting the river.

raising on the flop or turn is a mistake a lot of players would make, but given what you describe and no special player reads that is clearly wrong here.

[cpk]

Do you think raising the flop is generally wrong, or wrong because SB calls 3 cold, so there's no need to guard against SB having middle pair and getting a cheap draw to two pair or trips?

If you're afraid your A is dominated, why 3-bet with A8s on the button to begin with? Restealing in a 10-20 game? Silly. This style of play is too advanced for 10-20 and usually wrong.

The odds are not there to call two bets cold, and A8s is not strong enough to raise. This hand should be folded before the flop.

[anatta]

Against a steal raise from the cuttoff, a three-bet with A8s is marginal at best. I would probably fold unless I am 3-betting a very aggressive stealer. Here, its not really a steal raise. The cuttoff+1 has the poster, the cutoff, you, and the blinds to get through. Yes, he is in LP and maybe trying to isolate the poster, but he probably has a real hand. As it played out, when he fourbets after the small blind calls, you can't like your hand too much.

As for playing it differently other than folding, I would do what you did, call all the way. On the end, its gets interesting. It seems clear that 4 better has a big pocket pair and you got him beat. You are getting 2:1 on a bet since a check-raise is unlikely. Do you beat the small blind and the 4 better over 33% of the time. No, I would just check here too.

[Clarkmeister]

I agree. Played fine on all streets except the river, where a bet is mandatory.

[StoneAge]

I agree I missed a bet on the river. About the only hand I think I had to fear was an AK or AQ in the SB, and I don't think those were necessarily the most likely hands for the SB, especially with the way the hand played after the flop. I fell to that "Wow I think I won this pot when I knew I was way behind after that four bet, let's just take what I got" feeling.

The initial raiser had KK and the SB QQ.

My question for cpk and anatta is this: What would be a minumum three bet for you in this situation. I feel that this situation is a very good one for three betting with a hand that I would not "normally" three bet with. I am most likely going to get heads up with over two small bets worth of dead money and there are a lot of hands someone could be raising with in this situation that I already have beat and some that have me beat but will check and fold to a flop bet from a three bettor. I also think that 10-20 is a very good level for this type of play. I don't yet play above 15-30 but I would assume that once you get above that level more people would be suspicious of a three bet from the button in this situation and the play would start to lose some value. Most of the table had comments when the hands were turned over and were definitely surprised at my hand. Unfortunately the game broke soon afterwards, but my three betting standards would have been pretty tight afterwards. Please feel free to respond to this as I am still open to critisim on the three bet

[mike l.]

"Do you think raising the flop is generally wrong, or wrong because SB calls 3 cold, so there's no need to guard against SB having middle pair and getting a cheap draw to two pair or trips?"

raising the flop w/ an A here is generally wrong. why scare away people who may call drawing very thin to pocket pairs when they have nowhere the correct odds? mixed w/ the fact that you may be outkicked and way behind yourself, calling is oftentimes the correct play here w/ other opponents in.
really though, the best option is sometimes raising and sometimes calling.

"If you're afraid your A is dominated, why 3-bet with A8s on the button to begin with? Restealing in a 10-20 game? Silly. This style of play is too advanced for 10-20 and usually wrong."

i think you underestimate "restealing" in a 10-20 game. there are some okay players playing 10-20. also it's hard to call 3 betting w/ A8s a resteal. it very well may be the best hand a lot of the time depending on the opponent youre against.

"The odds are not there to call two bets cold, and A8s is not strong enough to raise. This hand should be folded before the flop."

unless there's a specific player read on a raiser being overly tight w/ his raises i cant imagine folding this to an ordinary lp open-raiser in the games i play in. the general raising standards from late position where im used to playing are much lower than what your describing. this may merely be a geographical abberation though.

[tewall]

I don't think you have anything to fear from SB. Surely he would have raised somewhere if he had something. Whether to bet or not would depend on how likely the original poster would be to play for a check-raise on the end. Not too many people would play that way though.

Regarding the 3 bet, it worked out very well for you as it eliminated 2 people whereas against a call they may have stayed in. On the other hand, As plays well against many players, so I think an argument could be made for playing it both ways.

[J_V]

You MUST bet the river here. They are telling you the ace is good and you aren't listening.

[cpk]

It's ironic you mention this--Seattle 10-20 games are fairly tough--most 10-20 games nationally are not all that. The reason for this geographical toughness is that the statutory limit on bets in poker is $25 (except in Indian casinos, where it is $500 by compact). Because there's really no bigger game in town (a club in Renton spreads 12-24), this really plays like a 30-60 anywhere else. So you'd better know how to re-steal--though I only do it occasionally.

I find that in a typical 10-20 lineup (typical for LV/CA, that is), you don't really want to take on even open-raises with A8s unless you identify someone as a loose raiser, in which case a three-bet is fine. I'd think about a call/reraise with A9s. The drop-off between A9s and A8s is really sharp, though, so that's where I draw the line.

[With more callers, though, I'd just call cold with A8s, because the odds justify.]

I see your point about the raise after the flop--I'd be more inclined to agree if the hand was heads-up and I knew the better to be overaggressive [see the thread on the hand vs. Roy Cooke]. I agree about the fear of domination--but as I said, if you're afraid of being dominated, why are you there with A8 to begin with?