Sgrena Lied

[sirio11]

Yes, and I still waiting for the famous satellite evidence that started this thread.

[Cyrus]

I had forgotten about tthat cock-up!

Back to Sgrena:
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Those [American] kids, Lozano and the Capt, will never be able to visit the wonderful Italian cities of Rome, Florence, Milan etc, without being arrested for manslaughter at the boder.

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Hold on a minute.

The United States has meticulously and thoroughly engaged in a diplomatic strategy whereby, through strictly bilateral negotiations, eg US-Italy, US-Congo, etc, it obtained practically total immunity for its military personnel. In so many words, I do not think that those (murderous) kids at the Sgrena checkpoint will be facing trial by an Italian court -- not even if they travel to Milan with the wisdom of Tripin Billy emblazoned on their t-shirts: "See an American checkpoint, Stop!
Don't and you Die!"

[Cyrus]

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I am not sure why you are coming unhinged over this particular incident.

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If strong language puts you off, I'm sorry but my deafault mode is to strive for accuracy.

I will not accept that there was a conspiracy to murder the Italian journalist, unless Bush himself admits to it; logic and the evidence simply do not point that way. At the same time, the proper term for the soldiers manning that (probably badly set up) checkpoint and being "under stress and fatigue", nervous (if not scared) from all the suicide attacks going on those days all around Baghdad, and may I add poorly trained, was trigger happy.

This ruffles some feathers, I know, but that's the proper (and relatively mild) term for it.

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You make various claims about the fitness, training, and mindset of American troops, things which you are in no position to be able to evaluate.

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The history, so far, of the Iraq campaign bears out everything I have claimed about fitness, training and mindset of American troops. Plus, all the news and evidence leaking daily out of Iraq corroborate, in the most conclusive terms, those descriptions.

If you want me to stop making them until I get to Baghdad myself, I will not oblige.

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BVCP showed with bold lettering the pertinent passages in the Italian report.

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How many times need we go over this?

Those "pertinent passages" show what I have already stated (conceded, if you wanna hear that word, is not right since I never claimed it!) from the beginning, i.e. that most probably there was no conspiracy, as such, to kill anyone in the Italian car - not Calipari and not Sgrena. The Italian Report states as much, purely and simply.

...When the Italian Report came out yesterday and confirmed my informed speculations, I was accused by BCPVP that I was only using what reports fit my "preconceived notions"! Is this rich or what?

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You also make various claims about the American aide cited and yet it is clear to me that you have no clear idea of what sort of relationship this term implies (and yes it does imply a certain sort of relationship.)

[/ QUOTE ] Are you implying there was sex involved? [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Seriously, you are in the military. Can you imagine a situation whereby an American officer would yield command on an operational matter in Iraq to an Italian superior officer?? I truly cannot. If you can enlighten me (us) on this eventuality, please do.

Let me say this: The American captain and aide to the Italian general did not "obey a direct order", as he now puts it. I'm sure he decided on his own, possibly as a matter of courtesy too, not to forward the matter of the Italian car's spring up the hierarchy to his superior officers. But, again, if you know better (and you're sure that the Italian general could actually order an American captain who acts as his aide), go ahead and divulge.

This claim happens now to be the weakest link in the American version of events -- which is contradictory enough already, as it is.

[vulturesrow]

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If strong language puts you off, I'm sorry but my deafault mode is to strive for accuracy.

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I've been in the military since I finished high school, this discussion doesnt even register on my strong language detector. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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The history, so far, of the Iraq campaign bears out everything I have claimed about fitness, training and mindset of American troops. Plus, all the news and evidence leaking daily out of Iraq corroborate, in the most conclusive terms, those descriptions

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Point me to something specific that you think shows that the American soldiers are a) poorly trained or b)not fit for the duties required. I have already seen what you think illustrates the American "trigger happy" mindset and Ive found it wanting.

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How many times need we go over this?

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Until you get it right. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

The Italian report somewhat contradicts itself in that on one hand claims to be able to tell where the blame should like while on the other hand saying it was impossible to investigate! Huh?!

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Seriously, you are in the military. Can you imagine a situation whereby an American officer would yield command on an operational matter in Iraq to an Italian superior officer?? I truly cannot. If you can enlighten me (us) on this eventuality, please do.

Let me say this: The American captain and aide to the Italian general did not "obey a direct order", as he now puts it. I'm sure he decided on his own, possibly as a matter of courtesy too, not to forward the matter of the Italian car's spring up the hierarchy to his superior officers. But, again, if you know better (and you're sure that the Italian general could actually order an American captain who acts as his aide), go ahead and divulge.


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Basically, the aide terminology implies that this officer works for the Italian general and thus, unless directly contradicting other order or US regulations, he would be expected to obey the General's orders. Here is what I think happened here. The General mentioned it to his aide and said it would be best if others didnt know. My assumption is that the Captain assumed (reasonably) that the matter wasnt for general consumption and that the American command element already knew about.

[smudgex68]

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Apparently enough time to:
1) notice a car was traveling towards them at 60 mph
2) attempt to signal the car (Accounts I've read say they used light, hand, and warning shots)
3) order the weapons to be unsafed and fired
That takes some time.

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The car was travelling 40-50kph.
The barriers in the US report located 110m from the temporary road block did not exist
It was raining and overcast (where are those satellite images?) and the driver was slowing at a turn, whilst also using his mobile telephone (very Italian)
The soldiers manning the road block had received 12 days training
Two of their colleagues had been killed two days before
A light was shone to warn the car, as the car braked it was fired upon.

It's clear that this accident was caused by untrained, stressed, frightened kids. No-one in Italy is asking for them to be arrested, no-one doubts it was an accident. Most believe paying ransoms for hostages is wrong. I believe the Italians just would have preferred a truthful and honest investigation, rather than the US military trying to blame someone else for their error.

[sirio11]

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I believe the Italians just would have preferred a truthful and honest investigation, rather than the US military trying to blame someone else for their error.


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Why is this so hard to understand?

[Cyrus]

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The Italian report somewhat contradicts itself in that on one hand claims to be able to tell where the blame should like while on the other hand saying it was impossible to investigate!

[/ QUOTE ] You are summarizing inaccurately. The Italians state that not all the evidence were made available to them by the American side (notably, the sat data) and, thus, a full and complete investigation, is not possible. Which is obvious.

They go on to state their findings on the basis of what was made available to them and what they discovered independently and also through logical conjecture. Again, quite normal.

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My assumption is that the [American] Captain assumed (reasonably) that the matter wasn't for general consumption and that the American command element already knew about [it].

[/ QUOTE ] Hold it right there! I do not for a minute believe that even you, a neo-con whose mind is destroyed through FoxNews overkill [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img], would ever go down that road! You are given a sensitive piece of information by an Italian general who's there to see off a hostage and you are not making sure your American superior officers know (discreetly) what's going down?!

Are you kidding me? I already told you to insert in the equation the possibility that the Italians' actions could endanger American lives. In which case, what does the action (rather, omission) of the American Captain become?? At best, the American Captain made a bad judgement call.

BTW, I have already stated that the situation in occupied Iraq is quite chaotic (blame either luck -or the poor organisation and planning of the occupier) and that getting information passed on to whomever the hell should be informed in Iraq about the Sgrena car is NOT as easy as phoning 911. But, still, the American side seems to have snafus cornered: Poor overall planning from one side, soldiers under fatigue and stress, quite trigger-happy as it was -- a recipe for a bloody Italian dish.

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I've been in the military since I finished high school, this discussion doesn’t even register on my strong language detector.

[/ QUOTE ] We should start a thread with atypical profanities. I'll beg Sklansky to switch off the filter.

[Cyrus]

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The car was travelling 40-50kph.
The barriers in the US report located 110m from the temporary road block did not exist
It was raining and overcast (where are those satellite images?) and the driver was slowing at a turn, whilst also using his mobile telephone (very Italian)
The soldiers manning the road block had received 12 days training
Two of their colleagues had been killed two days before
A light was shone to warn the car, as the car braked it was fired upon.
<font color="white"> . </font>
It's clear that this accident was caused by untrained, stressed, frightened kids.

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Well put. Just the facts.



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No-one in Italy is asking for them to be arrested, no-one doubts it was an accident. I believe the Italians just would have preferred a truthful and honest investigation, rather than the US military trying to blame someone else for their error.

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And why is the American side NOT exercising what every CEO worth his fancy tie clips knows (see here) to be elementary PR damage control??

Because of the overwhelming exceptionalism that characterizes the American post-Cold War posture. And arrogance. It's the arrogance of superpowers that begets hubris.

At which point, usually, the gods desert the all-powerful.

[lehighguy]

This whole thing started out with the women in the car stating that the American soildiers conspired to kill her on purpose. If you wonder why the US military ended up trying to put of blame that's why?

[smudgex68]

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This whole thing started out with the women in the car stating that the American soildiers conspired to kill her on purpose. If you wonder why the US military ended up trying to put of blame that's why?

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No-one in Italy, or in their right mind, believed her. It's worrying the US military did.