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#11
09-18-2005, 06:56 PM
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About Nothing.
[ QUOTE ]
Cyrus. Casino people or players often refer to a casino's gross monthly earnings as its hold. [/ QUOTE ] That's correct -- they often do. That's probably why WoO's definition added ... [ QUOTE ] There is a lot of confusion between the house edge and hold, especially among casino personnel. [/ QUOTE ] He could have added, between Win and Hold as well as between Drop and Handle. [ QUOTE ] Note that the UNLV paper makes it a point to write always Hold Percentage. [/ QUOTE ] I noticed, but on the other side of the equal sign they show a fraction -- I'm not sure what their point was other than to point out that the fraction could be reduced to a percentage. Conversationally, I've never heard it referred to as Hold percentage, just as a number. [ QUOTE ] The clarification between Win Percentage and Hold Percentage should have been made. [/ QUOTE ] It was. Just below the section you quoted, after the explanation of how it could be used. [ QUOTE ] SheetWise. Your inclusion of the sentence "At table games, a drop box is used to collect the money." leads me to believe that whoever wrote this, their experience is limited to slot machines. [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Cyrus. "Whoever wrote this" most probably only meant to make a distinction, in the entry for Drop, between the term Drop and the term Drop Box. [/ QUOTE ] I said that because they also confused Handle and Drop, which most slot departments historically considered to be the same thing. [ QUOTE ] ...If I recall correctly, we are currently merrily arguing the merits of the BJ21.com glossary because of your understanding of the meaning of the terms House Advantage and Hold, and specifically how they can be altered by amazingly simple means! So, to steer this cow back to the trail, kindly point out to us the equations through which, by betting an additional amount of money on Odds, you are changing the house advantage on your Pass line bet. [/ QUOTE ] Nobody ever said the house advantage on the Pass line bet changed, although that hasn't stopped you from repeating the assertion several times. The overall advantage (expressed as a percentage), or Win % if you prefer, changes. [ QUOTE ] You must think you're wreaking havoc to their Hold, right? [/ QUOTE ] The odds wagers shouldn't have any effect on the Hold. But because the odds wagers are part of the Handle, they reduce the Win %. Again, your use of the phrase "wreaking havoc to their Hold" seems to miss the point of what the Hold is, what it means, how and why it's used. It's simply the percentage of the cash you brought to the game that I earned when you leave. When I look at the books of a club, the Hold is the one number I want to pay closest attention to -- comparing table to table, shift to shift, month to month and club to club. As a metric, it gives me an incredible amount of information. It can tell me how personable a dealer is, if the players like the music being played by the lounge band, as well as draw a pretty accurate roadmap to the thieves. I'll leave it to you to figure that out. It's not just another number -- it's a number than can be quickly interpreted in some interesting ways. 
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#12
09-19-2005, 03:26 AM
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Nothing comes to Nothing
[ QUOTE ]
Your use of the phrase "wreaking havoc to their Hold" seems to miss the point of what the Hold is, what it means, how and why it's used. It's simply the percentage of the cash you brought to the game that I earned when you leave. [/ QUOTE ] My use of the phrase (which was a joke, but later about sphincter declenchers!) was in reference to what happens when a player buys in for pumpkins and oranges -- and then stands up, walks away and cashes his money at the cage! I'm sure there is no reason in the world for anyone to do such a thing but I'm just sayin'... [ QUOTE ] Conversationally, I've never heard it referred to as Hold percentage, just as a number. [/ QUOTE ] Me neither, but this is a matter of language, more than anything. Convenience leads to shorter and fewer words. [ QUOTE ] He could have added, between Win and Hold as well as between Drop and Handle. [/ QUOTE ] The webmaster has been notified. Amendments will hopefully be made. [ QUOTE ] Nobody ever said the house advantage on the Pass line bet changed, although that hasn't stopped you from repeating the assertion several times. The overall advantage (expressed as a percentage), or Win % if you prefer, changes. [/ QUOTE ] For someone who seems to know the difference between House Edge and Hold, you should have understood immediately that my reference was to the theoretical house advantage in the game of Craps, i.e. the expected loss of the player on his $100 wagered on the Pass line. There's no way the player's EV on that wager can change -- no matter how much more money he piles on other bets. Read the first post again, in this thread. It was meant as a (simple) warning to the suckers who "smartly" pile it up to take full Odds in the belief that they are behaving more intelligently than the other suckers. That was before you hijacked this thread to casino-accountingland. I now see a possible reason for your misunderstanding: You are working for the house. You are used to see things from the casinos' perspective, hence your focus on Win percentage. Close ?
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#13
09-19-2005, 12:28 PM
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Too Much of Nothing
[ QUOTE ]
in reference to what happens when a player buys in for pumpkins and oranges -- and then stands up, walks away and cashes his money at the cage! I'm sure there is no reason in the world for anyone to do such a thing but I'm just sayin'... [/ QUOTE ] Thats known as "false drop", and the floor keeps track of it (to a point). You have to be careful how you interpret false drop -- sometimes there's a reason. [ QUOTE ] I now see a possible reason for your misunderstanding: You are working for the house. You are used to see things from the casinos' perspective, hence your focus on Win percentage. Close ? [/ QUOTE ] I haven't worked for the house since around 1981 -- I've done some consulting over the years, but not employed by the clubs. I've been playing cards since around 75 (started with Spec Parsons). I try to see both sides. I don't consider making a wager in blackjack on a -10 count +EV -- but I still consider the game I'm playing +EV. It doesn't make sense to me unless I view the game as a process. From the club perspective, when I bought a player a drink, it was 100% loss (hows that for -EV, we had to pay those bar bills), but when I looked at the game as a process -- it was more profitable when I bought drinks. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
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#14
09-20-2005, 02:36 AM
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Re: Too Much of Nothing
[ QUOTE ]
I don't consider making a wager in blackjack on a -10 count +EV [/ QUOTE ] Well, for a long period of time, my max bets were going in ONLY when the count was tanking and dropping fast! Easy to figure out why. [ QUOTE ] From the club perspective, when I bought a player a drink, it was 100% loss (hows that for -EV, we had to pay those bar bills) [/ QUOTE ] That comp is semi-soft. [ QUOTE ] But when I looked at the game as a process -- it was more profitable when I bought drinks [to the customers]. [/ QUOTE ] Yes. Thank God for the endless masses of stupid casino managers. They are cranking them out from some factory, must be.
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#15
09-21-2005, 01:11 AM
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Re: Too Much of Nothing
[ QUOTE ]
I don't consider making a wager in blackjack on a -10 count +EV [ QUOTE ] Well, for a long period of time, my max bets were going in ONLY when the count was tanking and dropping fast! Easy to figure out why. [/ QUOTE ] [/ QUOTE ] I don't understand. You make your bets when the count is moving? [ QUOTE ] But when I looked at the game as a process -- it was more profitable when I bought drinks [to the customers]. [/ QUOTE ] ???
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#17
09-21-2005, 08:14 AM
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Pit Befuddled
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I don't understand. You make your bets when the count is moving? [/ QUOTE ] Yes. Downwards. And accelerating too. [/ QUOTE ] I always make my bets between hands, when the count is at rest.
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