Flop Boat...Trap or Push in?

[DOMIT]

I'm playing small stakes NL and had a situation where I was in the cutoff with 22 and was able to limp in for the flop.

UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero (in cutoff) calls, button, sb and bb call; so 6 to the flop.

*** FLOP ***: [Qc Qd 2c]

UTG checks; UTG+1 bets 6x BB, Hero calls, button folds, sb folds, bb folds, UTG calls.

3 left: UTG, UTG+1 and Hero.

*** TURN ***: [Qc Qd 2c][3d]

UTG bets 2xBB (?), UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

*** RIVER ***: [Qc Qd 2c 3d][4d]

UTG bets 12xBB, UTG+1 raises to 24xBB, Hero goes all-in for 47xBB, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

My question is: was I right to keep trapping or should I just push in on flop? I'm assuming that UTG and UTG+1 are sitting on the 2 remaining Q's and I can't put them on a boat. I was curious about UTG leading on the turn, but thought was just testing the UTG+1, see if he gets popped back.

[SpaceAce]

I'm not sure I see the point in trapping. A Queen is going to call you when you push in so why let him hit his kicker on the turn for cheap?

SpaceAce

[EVIL]

I would've made a substantial raise on the flop. UTG+1 is much more likely to have a Q than a 2, partly because you have 22, and is very unlikely to have Q2 or QQ. Even if UTG+1 does not have a Q, with 4 other opponents it's reasonably likely that someone else does. You want to accelerate the situation against a Q ASAP. Ideally you will get all your money in on the flop against a Q, and thus charge him a huge price to hit one of his 4 outs, and possibly get a flush draw (0 outs) to get his money in as well.

[DOMIT]

I guess my thinking was: if he bet the flop, rather than checked with 3 Qs on the flop, perhaps he has KQ or QJ (ie not QA), and is wanting to see where he is (of course, at the time I didn't realize that there was 2 suited out there, and he probably didn't want any flush draw drawing for free). This wanting to see where he was, to me, might have been confirmed with the UTG betting out on the turn. At that point I thought: ah, UTG has the Q with the A and doesn't want to lose UTG+1 with his bad kicker.

As for my own calling rather than raising, I didn't want to lose anyone either! I have a tight image at the table and, normally, when I bet big, everyone just folds and I get no action on my money. However, as you stated, if he had the Q, he probably wasn't going anywhere, and I was wrong not to push in.

As it turns out, UTG stayed in for his 2 outter [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]
*Player UTG shows: Full House (3/Queen) [3h 3s].

[jomatty]

i dont think trapping is a bad play. this is counter to others advice but unless the board comes paint paint and probably even then there is no way youre getting away from the hand. while there is a lot to be said for getting a Q commited i think youre right to let a flush draw get there as they prob wont draw against you but might pay off if you let them hit. if someone or two people have a Q youll probably get paid off and i dont think you can protect youre hand at least not as i would guess the small no limit game plays so you might as well let the folks that are drawing dead get there without any alarm bells going off.
if it was a tournament situation i would suggest raise early.
just my thoughts
jomatty

[theBruiser500]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure I see the point in trapping. A Queen is going to call you when you push in so why let him hit his kicker on the turn for cheap?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this point really matters since he and someone who has a queen are probably getting it all in the middle no matter what. The person with a queen isn't in there thinking, "let's keep this pot small, i need to hit my boat", and even if he was, I say, who cares, you can bet relatively small, he doesn' thave many outs.

danny

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure I see the point in trapping. A Queen is going to call you when you push in so why let him hit his kicker on the turn for cheap?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this point really matters since he and someone who has a queen are probably getting it all in the middle no matter what. The person with a queen isn't in there thinking, "let's keep this pot small, i need to hit my boat", and even if he was, I say, who cares, you can bet relatively small, he doesn' thave many outs.

danny

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you're wrong about the money going in no matter what. I wasn't saying that the Queen was going to try to make a cheap boat but I think it's better to get the money in right away when you're almost certainly a huge favorite. I don't want to say that a player should live in fear of his underfull getting beaten but I still think the point is valid. Make him put everything in while he's still a dog. It doesn't matter if the next card is going to hit his kicker or make someone else a batter boat; you're the favorite at the moment and that's the time to get your money in. Once you're beaten, every penny you put in is a mistake (assuming you aren't still the money favorite despite having a worse hand). A big raise would almost surely have gotten rid of 33 in this case and if it didn't, 33 would have been making a very large mistake in calling which is OK, too. A nice raise will either run out the freak beats that are waiting to hit you or increase your long-term profit by making the dogs put their money in against your big hand.

SpaceAce