Small pocket pair blind defense - how is my line?

gh9801 · #1 11-20-2005, 11:29 PM

Villain is TAG, Steal % is 40+

Party Poker 10.00/20.00 Hold'em (8 handed) link

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
6 folds, SB raises, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.00 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.00 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

River: (5.00 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.00 BB.

Nick Royale · #2 11-22-2005, 07:53 AM

I raise the flop, bet the turn and fold to any other aggression.

Badgerpoo · #3 11-22-2005, 08:54 AM

Grunch:

Raise the flop, bet the turn if checked to, fold otherwise.

Maybe even reraise PF? That might be a bad play though.

hobbsmann · #4 11-22-2005, 09:03 AM

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I raise the flop, bet the turn and fold to any other aggression.

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what nick said.

winky51 · #5 11-22-2005, 11:04 AM

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I raise the flop, bet the turn and fold to any other aggression.

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what nick said.

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ditto

Oh and the most important thing that they all forgot to mention... flop a set.

gh9801 · #6 11-22-2005, 05:42 PM

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I raise the flop, bet the turn and fold to any other aggression.

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Right, this is my default line too. Charge overs, try to take down the pot uncontested, define opponent's hand, etc. I'm just curious how good a line like this is against an aggressive TAG. Like in a WA/WB situation I'm keeping the hands undefined while inducing worse hands to bluff and losing the minimum to a better hand (while going to showdown as cheaply as possible)

Sometimes I feel I have to not raise the flop to avoid getting threebet on the flop with air and outplayed by ace high. I feel like my pair is very likely good, but sometimes I just want to trade some value for perhaps a cheaper showdown. Good? bad? How often should I be mixing it up, if ever?

And what about that river?

yellowjack · #7 11-22-2005, 05:45 PM

I'd like to hear thoughts on the river bet. Are we getting called by ace high on this board?

gh9801 · #8 11-22-2005, 05:52 PM

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I'd like to hear thoughts on the river bet. Are we getting called by ace high on this board?

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Villain can have anything at this point. Many TAGs will fire two bullets after raising preflop here with any two. The way the hand was played he could have 7 high, ace high, or quads. Often times I would be ahead the entire way agianst ace high and on this type of board, the way I played the hand, ace high will rarely fold. I think a value bet is necessary here.

After the river c/r now I have no idea what is right or what I should have done.

Nick C · #9 11-22-2005, 06:55 PM

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Sometimes I feel I have to not raise the flop to avoid getting threebet on the flop with air and outplayed by ace high. I feel like my pair is very likely good, but sometimes I just want to trade some value for perhaps a cheaper showdown. Good? bad? How often should I be mixing it up, if ever?

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I think the line you took is all right.

If you're ahead on the turn, Villain will usually have 12 or more outs, and I think raising there, hoping to get J6o to make an incorrect fold, has its merits. But the pot is small, and I don't think it's crucial to put up a big fight.

On the flop, if you're ahead, just calling and encouraging Villain to fire again on the turn with a 6-outer does have its advantages, in this small pot.

Anyway, I don't think you should do the same thing every time, but the line you took seems to me like one that's worth including in your repertoire.

Nick Royale · #10 11-22-2005, 07:04 PM

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I'm just curious how good a line like this is against an aggressive TAG.

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I think this line is good against an aggressive TAG. A TAG isn't likely to 3-bet you with air on the flop, but might be capable of folding overs for a bet on the turn.

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Like in a WA/WB situation I'm keeping the hands undefined while inducing worse hands to bluff and losing the minimum to a better hand (while going to showdown as cheaply as possible)

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The problem with a WA/WB-line is, as you probably know, that we're not WA/WB. Our opponent has at least 6 outs against us and we want him to get the opportunity to fold these and at the same time charge him for the times he's behind on the flop, which he'll often be. The times we'll get outplayed by a tag on this flop is when he has a fd and 3-bets (not all tags will 3-bet though). That's not anything we can protects ourselves against, the few times he has a flushdraw and 3-bets it we have to give up with this weak hand. Small PPs are vulnerable against semi-bluffs just because with a flop containing 3 overs we just can't call down against aggression against a reasonable or semi reasonable player.

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Sometimes I feel I have to not raise the flop to avoid getting threebet on the flop with air and outplayed by ace high. I feel like my pair is very likely good, but sometimes I just want to trade some value for perhaps a cheaper showdown. Good? bad? How often should I be mixing it up, if ever?

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You're not trading anything for a cheaper sd since you'll not go to a sd when you meet resistance. If you want to mix it up and think you're up against a player capable of 3-betting the flop with A-high you can just call the flop bet and raise the turn for a free sd. Most players will also autobet the turn meaning we're still having the same chance of being ahead when we raise the turn (yes, he could have hit the turncard but most often he'll be seeing this card even if we had raised the flop).

As said this would be a good line if you're worried your opponent might 3-bet the flop with air, since he's much less likely to 3-bet the turn with nothing. If you think your opponent is capable of folding a low pair to a turn raise this line gain even more value. I definately like this line better than calling down in any case. It will cost the same as calling down and most often we'll just be folding 2 outs the few times we're getting 3-betted on the turn, in contrast to our opponent who are folding at least 6 outs to our raise (EDIT: 6 outs in general, in this case 12 outs as Nick C pointed out). Also this line will most often end up in a sd. You shouldn't use this line against a maniac or one of these types of players who goes beserk in blind battles, since we might be folding the best hand. Players aggressive enough to 3-bet the turn with nothing are pretty rare though.

At least that's a line I take to mix it up against some players, and I think it's good.

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And what about that river?

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I wouldn't be betting this river (as said I'm betting the turn as the last bet I put into the pot), but if you do you need to be able to fold to the c/r.