bluffing in micro limits

[rivered_again]

From another thread:

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The problem with bluffing at micro limits is that you're only going to get players to lay down hands that are worse than yours.

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wrong. you can push people off bottom pair, second pair, top pair bad kicker (sometimes), and very rarely even more than that. but you have to know what your opponent is willing to lay down.

someday, my son, you'll understand.

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In my experience, bluffing in micro limits is a "win small, lose big" proposition because players at this level are not yet concerned with what YOU have, only what THEY have. If they get any piece of the flop (be it bottom pair, a marginal draw, or whatever) they are almost assured to call you down because poker is a game of luck to them and they want to see the hand through. And, since they play such a wide variety of hands, it's hard to put them on a hand to know if they will lay it down. You might get them to fold on the flop (if it misses them), but if they have their heart set on seeing if bottom pair will hold up, then the more money you contribute to a bluff, the more money you lose.

These days, the furthest I'll take a pure bluff is if I raise preflop with high unpaired cards and the flop misses me completely (like raising with AQo and the flop coming 369 rainbow), I'll bet and usually raise on the flop to represent a high pocket pair (although I doubt that they interpret it as such). If I get called or re-raised, that's the last penny I am putting into that pot. More often than not, I get called, and it's money lost to someone who is married to his bottom pair or marginal draw (and with enough opponents chasing draws, at least one of them will make theirs).

Sure, sometimes it works, because they missed the flop just as badly as you did. But that's not very often.

The way I see it, bluffing requires 2 key pieces of information: a somewhat defined range of cards your opponent is holding, and whether or not they will lay it down in a particular situation. Since players come and go pretty fast and you don't really have time to learn their playing styles, and they will play a wide variety of hands, you just don't have enough information to bluff at them intelligently.

[DrunkHamster]

I agree with you completely about this. Most of the time (in my experience,) people are likely to just call down with anything. However, (and this may not be as true for party), at stars micros where I play, there are usually 2-3 players on each table who are fairly weak tight Lee Jones clones. If you know who they are, or you can recognise them, sometimes bluffing can be quite profitable.

I think, however, it is a misconception that everyone at micros doesn't have a clue about the game. Certainly quite a few, if not most, are complete fish, but there are always some who at least try to be better players, and these are normally the weak tight predictables who are easier to take advantage of.

[Henke]

Never bluffing is bad IMO. However, the advice to never bluff at microlimits is not that bad to give to a beginner, because 101% of them are usually bluffing to much. If they try to follow that advice they might start bluffing with the correct frequency.

But, there are situations where bluffs might be profitable. For example, suppose the flop is 933 and you're in the big blind. Your four opponents check it around, and you're holding 72o. Your chance of winning here is not very high, but if you bet the turn, you might win more than 2 times out of five. Another possiblity that sometimes arises is when you're on say a str8draw, the pot is big, and on the turn the third suited card falls. If you bet out here (a donkbet) you might win the pot a few times. Notice also that you where probably going to call one bet anyway, and you (usually) won't get raised by other hands than a made flush.

However, the standard bluff of betting and raising overcards on the flop against multiple opponents is often a looser in the long run*. Many opponents think they "know" you have AK when the flop is T32, so they have to keep you honest with mediocre holdings.

*This of course depends on a lot of things, like how big the pot is, your chances of winning if you hit your cards and if you can go for the free card.

[car ramrod]

bluffing with no hand is not what you want to do. But it is a good move when you have outs.

Most calling stations are exactly that, so a bet doesn't usually get them to fold. There are ways around this.

Say someone raised pf and they are in late position. You flop middle pair (which you think maybe the best hand) Instead of betting, you check, hoping the pfr bets, like he will most of the time, then you raise to face the calling stations with 2 cold. They are more willing to fold to 2 bets cold, then calling 1 and then having to call another 1 all on the flop.

I'm mainly talking about semi-bluffing, you have to have outs to do this. But this way you get rid of hands that may draw out on you, when you think you have the best hand.

[@bsolute_luck]

blind defense against a preflop raiser, i bluff alot by betting into him depending on who it is either on the flop or turn. c/r is more difficult as it seems to tie them more to the hand and call down seeing it as a bluff- don't know why really. and i don't wait 'til the river because that is when most people do call "just to see if you're bluffing"

HU/shorthanded i bluff a lot. any more than 3-handed, only semi-bluffs.

but to not bluff because "they call me down with anything" is a poor line of thinking.

[Amerretto]

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and these are normally the weak tight predictables who are easier to take advantage of.

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Slightly off topic, but I'm probably one of these. so how do you take advantage? Is it just that we play SSHE ABC poker, ie raise with AA, call pairs etc etc. thus making the hand we play pretty much like an open book. Would you just bet, bet, bet, unless reraised where you would fold? Kind of interested to see what the next stage is.

[@bsolute_luck]

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and these are normally the weak tight predictables who are easier to take advantage of.

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Slightly off topic, but I'm probably one of these. so how do you take advantage? Is it just that we play SSHE ABC poker, ie raise with AA, call pairs etc etc. thus making the hand we play pretty much like an open book. Would you just bet, bet, bet, unless reraised where you would fold? Kind of interested to see what the next stage is.

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all i can give is..."it depends". who our opponent is, texture of the board, where the opponent raised, what your hand is. or just do it for fun to see what happens [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

here's what i see from weak-tighties: they'll raise with overcards, but when bet into on the flop, if they missed, they'll call one, but fold the turn UI.

try reraising the flop. that'll shut down a bluff real quick.

[topspin]

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here's what i see from weak-tighties: they'll raise with overcards, but when bet into on the flop, if they missed, they'll call one, but fold the turn UI.

try reraising the flop. that'll shut down a bluff real quick.

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This doesn't make sense to me. Are you talking about a multi-way hand or heads-up? 3-betting unimproved overcards (assuming you don't flop some sort of monster draw) into a big field is spewing chips.

If you're heads-up, I don't like it either. If you think you're being bluffed at, call it down. 3-betting gets you capped against a legit hand and folds out a bluffer. I'd rather call and keep him bluffing with the worst hand.

[@bsolute_luck]

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here's what i see from weak-tighties: they'll raise with overcards, but when bet into on the flop, if they missed, they'll call one, but fold the turn UI.

try reraising the flop. that'll shut down a bluff real quick.

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This doesn't make sense to me. Are you talking about a multi-way hand or heads-up? 3-betting unimproved overcards (assuming you don't flop some sort of monster draw) into a big field is spewing chips.

If you're heads-up, I don't like it either. If you think you're being bluffed at, call it down. 3-betting gets you capped against a legit hand and folds out a bluffer. I'd rather call and keep him bluffing with the worst hand.

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*sigh* dude i was just giving an idea. i was talking about HU. this isn't a default. i was merely giving a suggestion to a poster asking about his weak-tight tendencies how to answer a possible bluffer.

there are tons of aspects to whether to call down or not, reraise or not, fold or not. so to return to the OP: it is very much possible to properly bluff at the proper time the proper amount of times against the proper opponent with the proper table image (yes, i do believe it is possible to have this online).

[Aaron W.]

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These days, the furthest I'll take a pure bluff is if I raise preflop with high unpaired cards and the flop misses me completely (like raising with AQo and the flop coming 369 rainbow), I'll bet and usually raise on the flop to represent a high pocket pair (although I doubt that they interpret it as such).

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A bet with big overcards on a ragged flop is often a value bet. Pay attention to the flop texture.

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If I get called or re-raised, that's the last penny I am putting into that pot. More often than not, I get called, and it's money lost to someone who is married to his bottom pair or marginal draw (and with enough opponents chasing draws, at least one of them will make theirs).

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This play depends on the size of the pot. If there were many players on the flop, you can usually call the raise and the see the turn. Bet-folding flops like this with overcards is a generally stupid thing to do. If there are lots and lots of players in the pot and you're OOP, just check-call the flop.

The way it sounds, you have classic weak-tight overcard tendencies. You want to be 'aggressive' so you bet, but you give up under the slightest bit of resistance (or even if you just get called). You need to rethink your approach to overcards.

Why do you raise them preflop? Why do you bet them on the flop?

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Since players come and go pretty fast and you don't really have time to learn their playing styles, and they will play a wide variety of hands, you just don't have enough information to bluff at them intelligently.

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You would be surprised how much information you can get in 30 hands against a loose player if you're paying attention...