PL hand

TylerD · #1 08-08-2005, 09:31 AM

Doing this from memory, so bear with me.

$200 PL08 on Party. Stack size in brackets.

1 limper from EP ($200) and I ($230) limp from MP with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8x, maybe another limper, not sure, a loose aggressive (but not crazy) button ($300) raises to $10. EP calls, and I call.

3 to flop with ~ $35 in the pot. Flop 875 rainbow with one diamond. EP pots it, MP calls, I raise pot.

Thoughts?

Mine: As well as having an uncounterfeitable low (almost) I also have top pair and outs to make a reasonable high (back door flush, two pair, trips etc.). But more importantly I think I have a fair amount of folding equity.

Wintermute · #2 08-08-2005, 11:07 AM

Could go either way on this, maybe just call to bring the button along... generally players at the $200 level aren't going to fold in this spot if they've already put in their $35 on the flop, so the only place you've got fold equity is in the button. If you really think you want him to fold, raising is fine, but calling wouldn't be a bad choice either. Really this is a situation where you can do no wrong, except to fold.

gergery · #3 08-08-2005, 11:30 AM

I agree with wintermute.
Personally, i jam there. If it's close, I'll pick the more aggressive option.

-g

emptyshell · #4 08-08-2005, 03:26 PM

Raising is correct, IMO. The big raise might promote your high to be best, and it would be good to get the money in sooner rather than later just in case a 2 or A falls. I do think you have some fold "equity" against MP, but probably not EP. I'm also not sure whether you want the button in since he very well might share your low.

I'd usually raise that hand preflop from MP if there is already an EP limper.

Wintermute · #5 08-08-2005, 05:09 PM

I was about to argue w/ emptyshell about the fold equity of the MP player when I realized your original post doesn't quite make sense... are you MP or the loose-aggro button? The flop action can't be right given the way you described the preflop action. If you're last to act on the flop, raise for sure. If there's a player left to act behind you (but just 3 to the flop), I also think it's a sure raise, since you'd like to get heads up against another low w/ weaker high. BUT, if there are 4 to the flop, I'd say 50/50 raise/call because I think you might like to bring the button along, and I don't see any fold equity for MP (why would he call EP's flop bet when getting 2:1 but then lay his hand down when he's getting 4:1 or better when the action gets back to him, unless he's a complete moran).

TylerD · #6 08-08-2005, 05:59 PM

You're right, sorry, it was the BB who was loose aggro, he was the one who raised preflop, and potted it on the flop. I was closing the action.

emptyshell · #7 08-08-2005, 06:49 PM

I'm guessing wintermute would say raise in this case.

Assuming the original setup, assuming the button folds, MP would be getting at best 3:1 to call the raise, right? The odds could be much worse, of course, if the BB reraises.

In any case, if MP has two pair, a set or a nonnut straight, a raise could cause him to fold, I think. The raise gives him information that he may be beaten, which changes the decision thought process. So, it isn't reasonable to just compare pot odds.

If MP was you, knowing how you play, I would put the fold probability at around 5%. Typical party players often fold to raises, though.

Wintermute · #8 08-08-2005, 07:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm guessing wintermute would say raise in this case.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yep see above

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming the original setup, assuming the button folds, MP would be getting at best 3:1 to call the raise, right? The odds could be much worse, of course, if the BB reraises.

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not necessarily--if the BB doesn't have a larger-than-buyin stack, then the odds can't get worse than 3:1 for him (a pot-raise will put the players all-in easily assuming $200 stacks). I was thinking 4:1 because it sounds like button would frequently come along, and he has a $300 stack (so coming along for the full bet, not less).

[ QUOTE ]
In any case, if MP has two pair, a set or a nonnut straight, a raise could cause him to fold, I think. The raise gives him information that he may be beaten, which changes the decision thought process. So, it isn't reasonable to just compare pot odds.

If MP was you, knowing how you play, I would put the fold probability at around 5%. Typical party players often fold to raises, though.

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Me: 0%. What hand could I possibly call a pot-sized bet with that I wouldn't call the raise? (If I'm only calling there, something is usually wrong anyway, I guess.) I think only the unbelievably tight players would lay this down, but then they'd probably quit on the first pass on the flop. You may be right though, I haven't run any statistical analysis or anything.