What to do with this flop raise

GooperMC · #1 09-12-2005, 05:24 PM

25 PL Omaha Hi/Lo (8 handed)

Hero ($25)
BB ($43.56)
UTG ($41.22)
UTG+1 ($31.17)
MP2 ($28.50)
LP1 ($9.75)
LP2 ($23.52)
CO ($24.15)
OTB ($15.70)

Preflop: Hero is in SB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
(5 folds), OTB calls (0.25), SB calls (0.15), BB checks.

Flop: ($0.75) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets (0.75), BB calls (0.75), OTB raises (3.75) to 3.75, Hero???

FYI I was not involved in this hand.

A couple of questions:
1) Do you raise pre-flop?
2) Do you re-raise the flop?
3) How much fold equity do you think a re-raise would has?

TGoldman · #2 09-12-2005, 05:44 PM

Raising pre-flop is fine, but so is completing IMO. The crux of this hand is playing out of position, so raising will depend upon how well you're able to do so.

On the flop, I think you have close to zero fold equity. OTB raised two players the full size of the pot on a board full of draws, so he almost surely isn't bluffing. If you re-raise, all of the chips will very likely be going into the pot.

You're only in trouble if OTB has a flush draw or set along with a decent low draw. Otherwise, you're about even money to hands like top set or flush draw. Either way, your equity is going to change on the turn, and you should be able to identify it. So I prefer to just call his raise and see what the turn brings. If you make a low, then jam away. Very likely OTB will still be willing to shove his remaining chips in on the turn.

emptyshell · #3 09-12-2005, 05:52 PM

I'd reraise the flop. I don't want to have to make a decision on the turn if a high card hits.

Preflop, I'd raise against passive opponents that don't know how to take advantage of position, but just complete against good players.

GooperMC · #4 09-13-2005, 01:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'd reraise the flop. I don't want to have to make a decision on the turn if a high card hits.

[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly the reason that I wouldn't raise. You are OOP so what do you do if he flat calls and the turn bricks?

Mendacious · #5 09-13-2005, 01:34 PM

I Agree with the flaming air-humping cartoon.

Ribbo · #6 09-13-2005, 02:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd reraise the flop. I don't want to have to make a decision on the turn if a high card hits.

[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly the reason that I wouldn't raise. You are OOP so what do you do if he flat calls and the turn bricks?

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't play PLO8, you're far too negative to be able to make the correct play. It doesn't matter if the turn card bricks, it doesn't matter if the river card bricks. You put your money in with a good hand that is profitable on that flop, THAT IS ALL THAT MATTERS. (plus it puts a ton of pressure on anyone with middle set/bottom set/2 pair to fold their high hand fearing top set.

emptyshell · #7 09-13-2005, 03:17 PM

You only need to have 33% equity to call a full pot bet on the turn (or even less if the bet puts you all-in, which is more likely if you reraise the flop). A wheel draw will give you that against most hands. I'd only get nervous if a high diamond hits.

You've got to be in the mindset of putting money into the pot when you are a favorite. Most of the time, you're a favorite on the flop here.

GooperMC · #8 09-13-2005, 04:42 PM

Ribbo you alway make posting on this forum interesting. Somehow you manage to make every thread you post in a flame war.

[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't matter if the turn card bricks, it doesn't matter if the river card bricks. You put your money in with a good hand that is profitable on that flop

[/ QUOTE ]
A re-raise is going to put less the 1/2 my stack in the middle so I wouldn't be able to get money in on the flop, I might have to wait for the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
THAT IS ALL THAT MATTERS.

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you saying that if I got 1/2 my stack in on the flop then made a -EV call all in on the turn that would be good poker?

[ QUOTE ]
plus it puts a ton of pressure on anyone with middle set/bottom set/2 pair to fold their high hand fearing top set.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is the $25 tables. Nobody will fold bottom set or top 2.

GooperMC · #9 09-13-2005, 04:46 PM

I am not trying to say that I am not a favorite on the flop an IP I would push this every time. I am also not saying that calling a turn bet would be -EV I just think that calling the flop and re-evaluating on the turn may be more +EV.

If you re-raise the flop there is little play left in the hand. Hero is better player then his opponent so I think the fact that after hero re-raises the hand plays itself hurt hero.

#10 09-13-2005, 06:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Are you saying that if I got 1/2 my stack in on the flop then made a -EV call all in on the turn that would be good poker?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you get 1/2 your stack in on a flop, then its impossibl;e to be getting less than 3:1 on the turn (actually better than that due to any dead money).