QQ - do i have to call this down?

rivered_again · #1 11-11-2005, 02:17 PM

Villain sat down a few hands ago, so I had to assume that capping preflop meant a premium hand like AA-TT, AK-AQs, so as a default read that's what I went with. I had a few more hands on the BB, and he was quite fishy. His cold call screamed ace rag to me. Fish simply cannot get away from ace rag.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 2 folds, Hero 3-bets, 3 folds, BB calls, UTG caps, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (12.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, Hero calls, BB folds.

Turn: (7.25 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 8.25 BB

This flop said to me that I was WAY behind. Any of the aforementioned hands that I put the 2 opponents on had me severely beaten and I was drawing to at most 6 outs (4 kings for a straight, or 2 queens (if they don't have AA, and nobody has a king)) to as little as 3 outs (3 non-club kings). The turn was a blank and it looked hopeless, so I folded because the pot wasn't that big.

Is there any reason to call down?

milesdyson · #2 11-11-2005, 02:23 PM

against AA you have 4 outs. againts AK you have 3 outs. against KK you have 2 outs.

looks good

deception5 · #3 11-11-2005, 02:28 PM

This looks fine since you're pretty much behind everything in his range. Your Q outs are no good against AK/KK/AA and your K outs may result in a split (or even a loss against AcQc).

If he turns out to be a donk later you can always adjust your play against him.

sean c · #4 11-11-2005, 02:28 PM

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against AA you have 4 outs. againts AK you have 3 outs. against KK you have 2 outs.

looks good

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Nice hand.

Vex · #5 11-11-2005, 02:51 PM

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Is there any reason to call down?

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I think you're asking the wrong question.

You were the man in the middle on the flop and just cold-called. Here, you need to raise to turn up the heat and get some information.

The villain is simply bound to bet the flop because of the preflop action. His bet gives you no additional information. Then, you call, which IMO is worse than both folding and raising here. Why? Because you're giving the guy behind you better odds to come along, and you already know that you're not strong enough for that. If he calls behind, then you don't have any more information about what he might be holding. So, you're sitting there with what started out as a premium hand. By just flatcalling the flop bet, you don't have a clue about whether you're ahead or behind.

So, you put him on a strong hand because of the preflop action and figure you're up against a strong ace or a flopped set. That's fine. But, reads are only part of the thought process. Also, reads need to be refined as the hand progresses. Do you think he's strong? Test him with a raise. It's not a waste of money. Without that knowledge, it's easy to assume the worst and fold the turn. It's worth the cost of a sb to raise up the flop and have a better idea about where you stand.

#6 11-11-2005, 03:00 PM

Virtually any hand he would cap with has you dominated now. TT,JJ(hands I probably wouldn't cap with but you never know) just hit their set. AA hit a set. KK is still ahead and you only have 2 outs(the other 2 Ks). AK is way ahead. I do exactly the same. Call on the flop and hope to hit your gutshot with the K (preferably not even the K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]).

sean c · #7 11-11-2005, 03:02 PM

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Is there any reason to call down?

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I think you're asking the wrong question.

You were the man in the middle on the flop and just cold-called. Here, you need to raise to turn up the heat and get some information.

The villain is simply bound to bet the flop because of the preflop action. His bet gives you no additional information. Then, you call, which IMO is worse than both folding and raising here. Why? Because you're giving the guy behind you better odds to come along, and you already know that you're not strong enough for that. If he calls behind, then you don't have any more information about what he might be holding. So, you're sitting there with what started out as a premium hand. By just flatcalling the flop bet, you don't have a clue about whether you're ahead or behind.

So, you put him on a strong hand because of the preflop action and figure you're up against a strong ace or a flopped set. That's fine. But, reads are only part of the thought process. Also, reads need to be refined as the hand progresses. Do you think he's strong? Test him with a raise. It's not a waste of money. Without that knowledge, it's easy to assume the worst and fold the turn. It's worth the cost of a sb to raise up the flop and have a better idea about where you stand.

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Hi Vex give me a capping range for an unknown player and look at how many of those hands we would be ahead of maybe 99 or 88 if you want to give him a huge capping range. Hero calls the flop because he has the odds to draw at his gut shot and folds the turn because he doesn't.

milesdyson · #8 11-11-2005, 03:05 PM

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Is there any reason to call down?

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... The villain is simply bound to bet the flop because of the preflop action. His bet gives you no additional information. Then, you call, which IMO is worse than folding...

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wowzers

Vex · #9 11-11-2005, 03:15 PM

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Hi Vex give me a capping range for an unknown player and look at how many of those hands we would be ahead of maybe 99 or 88 if you want to give him a huge capping range. Hero calls the flop because he has the odds to draw at his gut shot and folds the turn because he doesn't.

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Any hand that is worth raising with preflop. Once it has been three-bet, capping is a decision of how much strength you want to show and why you want to show it. When I three-bet preflop, I expect it to be capped as a matter of course, and I expect the capper to come out betting on the flop no matter what comes. When either of those two things don't happen, then is when I really start to rethink my line.

sean c · #10 11-11-2005, 03:21 PM

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Hi Vex give me a capping range for an unknown player and look at how many of those hands we would be ahead of maybe 99 or 88 if you want to give him a huge capping range. Hero calls the flop because he has the odds to draw at his gut shot and folds the turn because he doesn't.

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Any hand that is worth raising with preflop. Once it has been three-bet, capping is a decision of how much strength you want to show and why you want to show it. When I three-bet preflop, I expect it to be capped as a matter of course, and I expect the capper to come out betting on the flop no matter what comes. When either of those two things don't happen, then is when I really start to rethink my line.

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You didn't give me a range.