A useless & somewhat insane hypothetical

ilya · #1 09-17-2005, 06:36 AM

Say it's folded to you on the button and you have JJ. There is no SB in this hand, so it's just you and the BB. You both have XXxbb and you somehow KNOW 3 things:

1, he has 66
2, he will call any amount preflop
3, he will SOMETIMES fold to a bet on the flop (depending on pot size) but will always check/call with a set or better.

You also plan to push the flop no matter what.

What's the optimal amount to bet preflop in a tournament?

45suited · #2 09-17-2005, 06:50 AM

Am I missing something? Push pre-flop.

ilya · #3 09-17-2005, 06:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Am I missing something? Push pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You may not be missing anything at all but here's what I'm getting at. Say Villain ALWAYS folds flop unless he flops a set or better. Now what is the optimal amount to raise preflop?

splashpot · #4 09-17-2005, 07:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Am I missing something? Push pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You may not be missing anything at all but here's what I'm getting at. Say Villain ALWAYS folds flop unless he flops a set or better. Now what is the optimal amount to raise preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]
Still push pre-flop. Unless you're in some weird situation like bubble and one guy has a micro stack.

Jman28 · #5 09-17-2005, 07:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Am I missing something? Push pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You may not be missing anything at all but here's what I'm getting at. Say Villain ALWAYS folds flop unless he flops a set or better. Now what is the optimal amount to raise preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess 99% of your stack then. Gives him 2 less cards to hit his set.

If stacks are RIDICULOUSLY deep and you can do this for as long as you want until one of you busts, there may be an argument for limping to see get set over set and then get all the money in as a more significant favorite.

lacky · #6 09-17-2005, 08:38 AM

I dont care if we are on the bubble and the micro has one chip, if I know I'm in a 80/20 I'm pushing.

Double Down · #7 09-17-2005, 08:45 AM

I don't understand. If you know you have overpair, why would you not want to get it all in pf? Especially since he'll call any amount but after flop might fold. What argument would there be for not pushing?

tshort · #8 09-17-2005, 09:05 AM

Assuming the hero is going to blindly push the flop, he should bet all of his chips except one preflop.

Slim Pickens · #9 09-17-2005, 01:57 PM

Am I missing something? You bet all you chips except the one on top of your cards. He calls for that many chips with you as an 85/15 favorite seeing the flop. Then when no 6 flops, you drop your last chip in and he folds getting 2342354335:1 odds on his two-outer.

MegaBet · #10 09-17-2005, 03:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Am I missing something? Push pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You may not be missing anything at all but here's what I'm getting at. Say Villain ALWAYS folds flop unless he flops a set or better. Now what is the optimal amount to raise preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

If villain ALWAYS calls a preflop raise and he will only call a flop bet if he hits a set ot better, it is HUGE HUGE +EV to push preflop. He can only win if he hits trips, in which case you are done anyway.