Prima 25-50 NL Hand #2: Folding QQ on an all-unders flop?

neon · #1 03-10-2005, 07:05 PM

25-50 NL on Prima. Full ring.

Relevant stacks and reads:

UTG: ~$4,000, no special read, seems pretty solid.
UTG+1: ~$5,500, just sat down, no read.
MP: ~$15,000, tripled up from one hand about an orbit ago where he flopped the nut str8 vs. a set and an overpair. Seems solid, both pre and post flop.
Hero: ~$8,200 in BB w/ QQ, suits unimportant

UTG limps, UTG+1 makes it $300 to go (larger than average raise--lots will make this type of raise w/ JJ, 1010, but again, no read), MP calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Pot is ~$1225.

Flop is J9x two spaids. Checked around to UTG+1, who fires pot. MP folds, Hero folds, UTG folds.

Whaddya think? Standard fold out of position here sans read? Too tight? If so, when to get frisky?

Thanks in advance.

Ulysses · #2 03-10-2005, 07:57 PM

a) Your game selection looks great. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

b) I'd fire $1,000 into him and go from there.

JihadOnTheRiver · #3 03-10-2005, 08:11 PM

This is why I could never play NL at that level. I'm going to assume that you're a regular winner if you're playing the 25/50 level. I could never get away from QQ on a somewhat benign board like that. I am anxious to hear if what the members that are experienced at that level say, because I really can't see a justification for folding there, but I don't really know what kind of line you should take other than that.

-Jihad

PS. Why didn't you raise PF? Or am I reading it wrong...

neon · #4 03-10-2005, 08:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
b) I'd fire $1,000 into him and go from there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. So say I get called in at least one spot. What's your move on a non-spaid, brick turn?

Appreciate it. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

partygirluk · #5 03-10-2005, 08:36 PM

Hi Neon:

there was a good discussion on how to play a medium~large overpair out of position v. preflop strength here . Whilst it is from a tournament with shallowish stacks, it might spread a bit of illumination on your quandry. One line that was suggested there was: checkcall the flop, then lead the turn. I'd be interested in the thoughts of this forum on that one.

neon · #6 03-10-2005, 08:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is why I could never play NL at that level. I'm going to assume that you're a regular winner if you're playing the 25/50 level. I could never get away from QQ on a somewhat benign board like that. I am anxious to hear if what the members that are experienced at that level say, because I really can't see a justification for folding there, but I don't really know what kind of line you should take other than that.

-Jihad

PS. Why didn't you raise PF? Or am I reading it wrong...

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, that's why I'm posting the hand, as I'm not sure I didn't botch this one royally. As I believe Diablo eluded to in his post (or perhaps it was in reference to the Prima games, which are very good[img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]), I am likely a bit over my head in this game; I usually play lower than this (5-10, 10-20 NL), but have been running good and decided to take a shot.

Anyway, when a player new to the table whom I had no read on open raised to $300, got called in three spots, and then came out guns ablaze on a "benign" flop, the only hand I could give him credit for that I was ahead of at that point was 1010. (AKs, as well, I suppose, but as evidenced by his later play, UTG+1 was not very laggy at all).

I'm curious as to what others think about this, too. I didn't raise it preflop, b/c a new player to the table made a big raise in EP, and it smelled like a big hand to me. I would not have liked my situation on that flop if I had reraised big pre and gotten called in at least one spot.

What do you guys think? Any votes for re-raising pre, try to take it down there? If so, raise to how much?

Thanks again.

Ulysses · #7 03-10-2005, 08:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
As I believe Diablo eluded to in his post , I am likely a bit over my head in this game

[/ QUOTE ]

I was not alluding to that. I was alluding to this:

UTG: ~$4,000, no special read, seems pretty solid.
UTG+1: ~$5,500, just sat down, no read.
MP: ~$15,000, tripled up from one hand about an orbit ago where he flopped the nut str8 vs. a set and an overpair. Seems solid, both pre and post flop.

However, I just skimmed your post and did not realize that these were just the players involved - I thought you were playing 4-handed vs. 2 solids and 1 unknown.

Ulysses · #8 03-10-2005, 08:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
b) I'd fire $1,000 into him and go from there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. So say I get called in at least one spot. What's your move on a non-spaid, brick turn?

Appreciate it. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

If I get called, I probably check the turn and see what he does. Hopefully I will have some idea of what his bet sizes and patterns mean. If I have no idea, I will probably check-fold to a big bet.

neon · #9 03-10-2005, 09:02 PM

PartyGirl:

Thanks. That thread was very helpful, and I think I like the line of check-call the flop, lead the turn. With the line I took, I never defined the strength of my hand, which may have been the best hand preflop, and what I was struggling with was how to accomplish this and put UTG+1 to the test a little bit wihtout committing all/most of my stack.

There's a problem I see with the stop and go here, however. After I call his flop bet, there's ~$3675 in the pot. I have ~$6700 left and villain has ~$4000.

How much to bet on the turn to not seem weak and like an invitation for villain to push w/ AK or some other hand I beat, and yet still allows me enough room to fold comfortably to villain's push without feeling pot committed?

I'm not sure there is such a number. And w/ Diablo's line, which i also like better than mine, I'm faced with a nearly identical turn situation in terms of pot and stack sizes. And unfortunately, I had no previous experience playing against villain, and thus no knowlege whatsoever of his betting tendencies . . .

Thanks.

soah · #10 03-10-2005, 09:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is why I could never play NL at that level. I'm going to assume that you're a regular winner if you're playing the 25/50 level. I could never get away from QQ on a somewhat benign board like that. I am anxious to hear if what the members that are experienced at that level say, because I really can't see a justification for folding there, but I don't really know what kind of line you should take other than that.

-Jihad

PS. Why didn't you raise PF? Or am I reading it wrong...

[/ QUOTE ]

Four people saw the flop. It's somewhat unlikely that the preflop raiser would fire into a crowd of people with just an unimproved AK (but it's possible). Hero has the worst overpair possible. Even if you assume that the PFR will bet here with AK and TT, Hero is still losing to AA, KK, and JJ. So Hero is not in good shape against that range of hands, and he's unlikely to win anymore money if he does have the best hand.

This of course does not take into account the fact that you may get the preflop raiser to lay down a better overpair if you show a lot of strength. But if you want to run a bluff, you can probably pick better spots. And despite the fact that you have an overpair, getting all of your chips in the pot here would not be too much better than a bluff, because you don't have a hand nearly as strong as what you're representing and you will almost certainly lose if your opponent calls you down. Of course, it is certainly possible that you have the best hand preflop and on the flop, but it's a yucky situation. You can fire at the flop as Diablo says and hope everyone folds, or maybe even check-call the flop and then see if he's willing to fire again on the turn. But against a complete unknown, out of position, you really have no way to determine what his bets mean, and that makes this whole situation suck.

Just my two cents.