Review: Hand 0009, 96o

[Yerma]

Hi, I've never responded to one of these Micro Poster sessions before, so please tell me if I'm doing this wrong!

You have a systematic leak in your flop play showing right here in your first hand. Unless you think the button is especially likely to have limped heavy, you must bet.

In general, I'm talking about 3-way unraised flops here.

If you are in the middle and have a hand worth betting (I mean in general with pairs and such--not this hand specifically), then you should both bet and check-raise with some frequency. If you are last and have anything at all (eg. A-high), you should always bet. If you are first, you have to tighten up some because the players behind you should be quick to raise you with any piece of the flop. So from first in, check-raise often.

You can expand on what you should do in these 3-way pots on your own, but not betting with your hand on this flop in a 3-way unraised pot is a mistake. Also, these 3-way pots happen pretty often, so I think it's worth discussing.

[ QUOTE ]
- - - HAND 2652620009 - - -
PreFlop: Hero is BB with 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 Players)
2 folds, Button calls, SB calls, Hero checks,

Flop: (1.50 SB) 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 Players)
SB checks, Hero checks, Button checks,

Turn: (1.50 BB) A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 Players)
SB checks, Hero checks, Button checks,

River: (1.50 BB) 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 Players)
SB folds, Hero checks, Button bets, Hero folds,

Final Pot: 1.50 BB

Results below:
Button doesn't show.
Outcome: Button wins 1.50 BB.


[/ QUOTE ]

[AngelicPenguin]

Are you saying hero should bet his GS here? I'm confused b/c at first you say you have found a systematic leak, but later you say "not in this hand." As my two cents, I'm not sure I would bet my 9 high in this pot.

[Yerma]

Yes, he should bet his gutshot here. He may not get called, and if he does get called, he can still win. If the button raises or the small blind check-raises, then he's getting only 6:1 for his gutshot and can just fold.

What I meant by "not in this hand" is that when you flop something that has significant showdown value, and you are in the middle, then you should both bet and c/r with some frequency. That just means don't go nuts and c/r this flop from the middle with a semi-bluffing hand (that's an overly expensive move at the pot).

[Eeegah]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, he should bet his gutshot here. He may not get called, and if he does get called, he can still win. If the button raises or the small blind check-raises, then he's getting only 6:1 for his gutshot and can just fold.

What I meant by "not in this hand" is that when you flop something that has significant showdown value, and you are in the middle, then you should both bet and c/r with some frequency. That just means don't go nuts and c/r this flop from the middle with a semi-bluffing hand (that's an overly expensive move at the pot).

[/ QUOTE ]

Disregarding raises and implied odds for the moment, for this to be profitable we need BOTH opponents need to fold more than 57% of the time if my math is correct. This this'll happen? Not a rhetorical question; I doubt it but I could be wrong.

[Yerma]

This hand is related to the other one above.

I'm not saying microposter is wrong to bet this flop, just that from first position, he should be check-raising often. Personally, I check-raise more often than I bet here although I do not know whether that is optimal. Check-raising the flop will naturally lead to more (and more effective) river value betting since these bets roll off like continuation bets from the original flop check-raise.

[ QUOTE ]
- - - HAND 2652937554 - - -
PreFlop: Hero is BB with J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (9 Players)
1 fold, 3 folds, MP2 calls, CO calls, 2 folds, Hero checks,

Flop: (1.75 SB) 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 Players)
Hero bets, MP2 raises, CO folds, Hero calls,

Turn: (3.75 BB) 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls,

River: (5.75 BB) Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks,

Final Pot: 5.75 BB

Results below:
Hero has Jc 8c (two pairs jacks and sevens).
MP2 has Jd Ks (two pairs jacks and sevens).
Outcome: MP2 wins 5.75 BB.


[/ QUOTE ]

[Yerma]

He's getting 3:1 from the pot on the original flop bet, so if his bet folds out both the button and small blind 25% of the time on the flop, it is automatically a break-even bet. Add in that he can hit his gutshot, or sometimes just a pair and win, and he only has to fold out both players about 15% of the time to break-even.

[scotty34]

I agree with you that betting the first hand is probably a good idea. However, on this hand, I think I lead out every time. The only time I may attempt a C/R is if there is a very aggro late position player so I can face the field with 2 cold. My hand is very vulnerable, and I want opponents to make a mistake by calling me or to fold. I don't want to bloat the pot by check-raising and making it correct to call a second bet. Also, having this flop checked through would be a disaster.

[Yerma]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, having this flop checked through would be a disaster.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just not true in 3-way unraised pots!

[scotty34]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, having this flop checked through would be a disaster.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just not true in 3-way unraised pots!

[/ QUOTE ]

We have a weak top-pair hand on a draw heavy board. The last thing we want to do is be giving free cards.

[tyler_cracker]

[ QUOTE ]
This hand is related to the other one above.

I'm not saying microposter is wrong to bet this flop, just that from first position, he should be check-raising often. Personally, I check-raise more often than I bet here although I do not know whether that is optimal. Check-raising the flop will naturally lead to more (and more effective) river value betting since these bets roll off like continuation bets from the original flop check-raise.

[ QUOTE ]
- - - HAND 2652937554 - - -
PreFlop: Hero is BB with J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (9 Players)
1 fold, 3 folds, MP2 calls, CO calls, 2 folds, Hero checks,

Flop: (1.75 SB) 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 Players)
Hero bets, MP2 raises, CO folds, Hero calls,

Turn: (3.75 BB) 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls,

River: (5.75 BB) Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks,

Final Pot: 5.75 BB

Results below:
Hero has Jc 8c (two pairs jacks and sevens).
MP2 has Jd Ks (two pairs jacks and sevens).
Outcome: MP2 wins 5.75 BB.


[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Who do you think is going to bet this flop so we can check-raise? Also, it would suck to give a free card on a coordinated board (such as this one). Generally (and in this hand), i like Hero's line better.