get the hell out of my pot

[kagame]

What are the pro's and con's of calling the flop to push a nonspade turn? Will you ever be called by a weaker hand? Is the risk of running into a set here much too high?


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

MP2 ($1019.3)
MP3 ($616.8)
CO ($585.45)
Button ($467.55)
SB ($775.05)
BB ($609)
UTG ($114)
UTG+1 ($859.1)
UTG+2 ($434.05)
Hero ($460)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $3.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls $6, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $20</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Button calls $20, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls $14.

Flop: ($69) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG+2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $35</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $105</font>, UTG+2 folds, Hero calls $70.

Turn: ($279) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero is all-In [$335].
Button ??

[flawless_victory]

if i was gonna do this... id rather push the flop where you might get called by a worse hand.

[technologic]

why such a small raise pf? you're allowing people in for cheap especially when there's a limper

you're allowing a lot of implied odds to take you down

as for post flop play, i'd probably call the flop and check the turn and play it from there. i don't think there's any value in moving in on that turn as you lose FTOP wise. no draw will call unless they are fishy, and you let a hand like TT/JJ/QQ off the hook easy.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
why such a small raise pf? you're allowing people in for cheap especially when there's a limper



[/ QUOTE ]

I've asked this before, but I still haven't had anyone give me a satisfactory answer:
Is varrying your raise size pre flop a good idea and if so how do you vary it?

I always open raise the same amount, raise one limper the same amount, with 2 or more limpers I vary my raises some, but I raise less often after multiple limpers.

I tend to mix up what I raise with to disguise my hand. I just don't see how varying your raise size, unless it is by something neutral like position, is a good idea. Even if you employ some degree of randomness, you still leak information if the distributions for raise size depend at all on your hand. (e.g. with AA you raise 5BB 70%, 4BB 20%, 3BB 10% vice with 78s in the same position you raise 5BB 10%, 4BB 20%, 3BB 70%, the preceding on the contingency you raise and don't limp). Maybe people just are not perceptive enough to figure out "if he is raising 5BB, there is a much greater chance he has AA than 78s, though he has raised 78s 5BB in the past".

At any rate, since I like to raise pairs a lot first in, and will often raise some other hands for deception value first in, it seems like I am faced either with having to raise weaker hands more (in terms of BB), or letting people to the flop cheeply with my big pairs. I choose the latter, is this something I should be rethinking?

[gomberg]

[ QUOTE ]
At any rate, since I like to raise pairs a lot first in, and will often raise some other hands for deception value first in, it seems like I am faced either with having to raise weaker hands more (in terms of BB), or letting people to the flop cheeply with my big pairs. I choose the latter, is this something I should be rethinking?

[/ QUOTE ]

I like to raise my big pairs bigger than normal if I can. I get away with this by always raising huge from the blinds or the button, maybe the CO if there are limpers in (or raises). If I raise from the blinds, I usually bet 1.5 to 2x the current pot either w/ high pocket pairs or garbage. From the button, I'll put in a 1x - 1.5x pot raise (sometimes more) w/ high pockets, AK, and mid suited connectors some percentage of the time. It helps if there are limpers there.

From other positions, I like to limp-reraise or put in a standard raise. If there's limpers, then I make it more. My open raise is usually consistent though, which I will do with many hands - or at most vary by 1-2 BB.

So I am guilty of in general leaking some info about my hand preflop by raising bigger w/ pocket pairs. I'll let you in on a secret - I still get plenty of action at 5-10. It also generally matters who's in the pot w/ you as well.

[bobman0330]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why such a small raise pf? you're allowing people in for cheap especially when there's a limper



[/ QUOTE ]

I've asked this before, but I still haven't had anyone give me a satisfactory answer:
Is varrying your raise size pre flop a good idea and if so how do you vary it?

I always open raise the same amount, raise one limper the same amount, with 2 or more limpers I vary my raises some, but I raise less often after multiple limpers.

I tend to mix up what I raise with to disguise my hand. I just don't see how varying your raise size, unless it is by something neutral like position, is a good idea. Even if you employ some degree of randomness, you still leak information if the distributions for raise size depend at all on your hand. (e.g. with AA you raise 5BB 70%, 4BB 20%, 3BB 10% vice with 78s in the same position you raise 5BB 10%, 4BB 20%, 3BB 70%, the preceding on the contingency you raise and don't limp). Maybe people just are not perceptive enough to figure out "if he is raising 5BB, there is a much greater chance he has AA than 78s, though he has raised 78s 5BB in the past".

At any rate, since I like to raise pairs a lot first in, and will often raise some other hands for deception value first in, it seems like I am faced either with having to raise weaker hands more (in terms of BB), or letting people to the flop cheeply with my big pairs. I choose the latter, is this something I should be rethinking?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a great question. I'm no authority but here are my thoughts.

As you point out, raising more with a bigger hand is a tradeoff between gaining value and giving up info. In itself, that doesn't mean you should give up and resort to a standard bet size. After all, raising instead of limping is the same tradeoff of value/hand protection in return for information.

Assuming you're better than the opposition, I think the variable raise is an important sort of equity. The key is to make sure that your raising parameters don't give up too much info for the value you're getting. For example, in a short-stack game, information is going to be worth less to your opponents, so you can differentiate your raise patterns more according to the value of your hand. If stacks were deep, you'd have to keep your profiles closer together to keep your opponents from getting too much information. Likewise, against bad players who don't pay attention, you can vary your raises with impunity.

[technologic]

whenever i raise pf, i always consider

a) if i am opening the action
b) strength of my hand
c) my position

i will open with all sorts of hands a standard 4bb raise.

however, if there are limpers in front of me, i add a bb for every limper in front of me. this ensures a good part of the time that i will have position with my hand, so it will be harder to outplay me postflop with a marginal holding.

[kagame]

notice i didnt defend the pf raise, i usually do raise much more with big pair OOP, but the occassional medium sized raise from very EP is also something i do occassionally, find its easier to get reraised

[BobboFitos]

i do this too.

[ QUOTE ]
however, if there are limpers in front of me, i add a bb for every limper in front of me. this ensures a good part of the time that i will have position with my hand, so it will be harder to outplay me postflop with a marginal holding.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Marlow]

[ QUOTE ]
why such a small raise pf? you're allowing people in for cheap especially when there's a limper

[/ QUOTE ]

2x the pot size pre-flop has always seemed pretty standard to me. What would you recommend here?

Marlow
[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]