KK river fold

jason_t · #1 11-13-2005, 02:51 PM

The blinds are LPP but I don't have reads on the other guys yet.

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, SB folds, BB folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls.

Turn: (7 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls.

River: (9 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 bets, Hero raises, MP2 3-bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 14 BB

sweetjazz · #2 11-13-2005, 02:58 PM

Gutsy play but I like it. The only question is whether raising the donk is profitable, but I think so. A lot of times you'll see 97 or J7 or 44. Once he 3-bets, he either just hit his straight or has an 8. You're good here never.

einbert · #3 11-13-2005, 03:03 PM

Today I was playing in a 10/20 6max game, and there was a player to the left of me who was loose and passive before the flop. His screename was Dano (name somewhat changed for his protection). Here are two hands that he showed down:

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises, Dano calls, 2 folds.

Flop: (5.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Dano calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Dano calls.

River: (5.75 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Dano checks.

Final Pot: 5.75 BB

Results below:
Hero has Kd Ts (high card, king).
Dano has Ad Kc (high card, ace).
Outcome: Dano wins 5.75 BB.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises, Dano 3-bets, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Dano bets, BB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Dano checks, BB bets, Hero folds, Dano calls.

River: (8 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Dano checks, BB bets, Dano calls.

Final Pot: 10 BB

Results below:
Dano has Qd Kh (one pair, kings).
BB has 7c 6h (two pair, sevens and sixes).
Outcome: BB wins 10 BB.

I think his preflop play in these two hands illustrates pretty well why I wouldn't fold your pair of kings on the end getting 14-1.

Nick C · #4 11-13-2005, 03:05 PM

I probably would have been so confused by the river bet that I would have just called. I'm not claiming that's necessarily best, though.

Anyway, I suppose Villain had 77, J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], or an 8.

I wouldn't entirely rule out, say, T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or even 72o, but I do think you're probably beat.

SackUp · #5 11-13-2005, 03:08 PM

How are these hands even remotely close??

Your guy showed zero aggression on the river. In jason's example the guy three bet him on the river.

I like the fold jason. I like the raise by you and worse hands will call here a lot of times, but unless the guy is a maniac then I don't know what you are beating that he 3bets.

shabamgoddam · #6 11-13-2005, 03:11 PM

good discipline to fold to the 3-bet. most would call 1 more but i aggree you are never ahead here. the river raise is a bold play. i don't think he would have 3-bet w/o an 8 or a rivered str8. so the river raise play only costs 1 extra bet and his 3-bet can assure you he's ahead.

einbert · #7 11-13-2005, 03:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
How are these hands even remotely close??

Your guy showed zero aggression on the river. In jason's example the guy three bet him on the river.

I like the fold jason. I like the raise by you and worse hands will call here a lot of times, but unless the guy is a maniac then I don't know what you are beating that he 3bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

In one hand the guy threebet me OOP with KQo. In the other hand, the same guy coldcalled my raise with position with AKo. The point is that bad players, and the lower in limits you go the more this is true, do have a degree of absolute randomness to their play. My point is that this guy is gonna show something that logically doesn't make any sense whatsoever, more than 1 in 15 times. Especially at 2/4, where the degree of randomness is going to be a lot higher than at 10/20 in general.

einbert · #8 11-13-2005, 03:21 PM

For those of you that think this river raise is difficult, I don't really understand your thinking. This player will be donkbetting a newly acquired pair of 7's or a pair of tens very very frequently. And the average 2/4 player is certainly not folding either of those hands to a raise.

When he threebets you, he holds J9 the vast majority of the time. Other times he will hold some type of boat or trip sevens. But I submit that you need to be ahead less than 7% of the time to make calling that last bet profitable. And every once in a while, for whatever reason, this player has decided to go crazy on the river with something that you beat. Maybe it's less than 7% of the time. It's probably close. But personally I am paying this last bet off on the 1/10 chance that I have run into the guy who loves to bet-threebet the river as a bluff with his busted whatever. Hell, at 10/20 I know this is a bluff more than one in fifteen times. Surely the "randomly bad" factor is greater at 2/4.

Evan · #9 11-13-2005, 03:22 PM

I don't like it. Either call the 3 bet or don't raise. 14:1 is enough to call imo.

DMBFan23 · #10 11-13-2005, 03:26 PM

can anyone post an example of a hand like this where they won on a paired board when calling the river 3-bet against an unknown?