The Art of Value Betting

jonnyUCB · #1 06-13-2005, 06:03 PM

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (9 handed) converter

UTG+1 ($423.70)
MP1 ($257.60)
MP2 ($390)
MP3 ($642.25)
CO ($388)
Button ($403.50)
Hero ($396)
BB ($436.40)
UTG ($650)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
4 folds, MP3 raises to $20, 2 folds, Hero calls $18, 1 fold.

Flop: ($44) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $35, MP3 raises to $70, Hero calls $35.

Turn: ($184) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $50, MP3 calls $50.

River: ($284) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $64, MP3 calls $64.

Final Pot: $412

Results in white below: 
Hero has Ah Ad (two pair, aces and fives).
MP3 has Qc Kc (two pair, queens and fives).
Outcome: Hero wins $412. 

Pretty boring hand. I guess my question is after getting the feeling villian will be calling down, how much is appropriate to value bet?

I get the feeling I did not win as much as I could in this hand. Maybe I missed some value preflop but it seems like he wouldn't have given up much had I revealed my strength preflop. Reraising is probably standard but I do this play occassionally vs opponents who overvalue their hand and raise wide ranges pf (which villian seemed to do over ~20 hands).

Are there any rules of thumb anyone would like to share that they use to value bet against a relative unknown? How about strategies when one knows the tendencies of the villian (and perhaps they know yours)? I'm sure some interesting higher level psychology can be applied.

jkkkk · #2 06-13-2005, 06:58 PM

I do believe this area is one a lot of people overlook.

the general rule is half to full pot, which i agree in most situations is optimal.

but extracting value from a weak-tight with a stronger ace, for example, requires some under-betting i feel.

its a hard one to call, because you can never be sure what villain has, especially on a draw heavy board..

I'm not sure i can justify using an under betting line on a regular basis, but i'm sure there are situations that warrant it

Brophy · #3 06-13-2005, 07:04 PM

It also depends on your style of play, I have a friend who is very aggressive and over-bets the river with the nuts but because his image is so aggressive he tires to make it look like a steal and many times gets paid off.

brophy

RiverTheNuts · #4 06-13-2005, 07:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (9 handed) converter

UTG+1 ($423.70)
MP1 ($257.60)
MP2 ($390)
MP3 ($642.25)
CO ($388)
Button ($403.50)
Hero ($396)
BB ($436.40)
UTG ($650)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
4 folds, MP3 raises to $20, 2 folds, Hero calls $18, 1 fold.

Flop: ($44) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $35, MP3 raises to $70, Hero calls $35.

Turn: ($184) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $50, MP3 calls $50.

River: ($284) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $64, MP3 calls $64.

Final Pot: $412

Results in white below: 
Hero has Ah Ad (two pair, aces and fives).
MP3 has Qc Kc (two pair, queens and fives).
Outcome: Hero wins $412. 

Pretty boring hand. I guess my question is after getting the feeling villian will be calling down, how much is appropriate to value bet?

I get the feeling I did not win as much as I could in this hand. Maybe I missed some value preflop but it seems like he wouldn't have given up much had I revealed my strength preflop. Reraising is probably standard but I do this play occassionally vs opponents who overvalue their hand and raise wide ranges pf (which villian seemed to do over ~20 hands).

Are there any rules of thumb anyone would like to share that they use to value bet against a relative unknown? How about strategies when one knows the tendencies of the villian (and perhaps they know yours)? I'm sure some interesting higher level psychology can be applied.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone else check/raise the turn?

elus2 · #5 06-13-2005, 07:11 PM

i'd checkraise the turn and he could easily overplay AQ/KK. the only reasonable holding he could have which beats you would be QQ. if he checks behind on the turn i bet around 2/3 the pot on the river.

what do you think his hand range is after that flop minraise?

-Skeme- · #6 06-13-2005, 07:18 PM

I bet more on the river.

TheWorstPlayer · #7 06-13-2005, 07:22 PM

75 turn 125 river

jonnyUCB · #8 06-13-2005, 07:27 PM

Everyone seems to say bet more but isn't there a sort of balance one must achieve when we know opp's hand isn't that strong but still wants to showdown. Most replies give a line of getting it allin by the river but this seems impractical.

Turn ch/r seems really transparent as well. Will the standard villian really call a ~150 to allin bet on the river with one pair, after continued aggression?

Im beginning to think my turn play should have been stronger since my hand was still catchable, but it was outweighed by my desire to see him call.

TheWorstPlayer · #9 06-13-2005, 08:02 PM

To me, the fact that he min-raises tells us a lot about his hand. It tells us he has a draw, a monster, or top pair. I very much doubt it is second pair. I very much doubt it is 2 pair. I would say a set, top pair, or a straight draw. Against that hand range, leading the turn is absolutely correct. But how much should you lead for? Well, you are going to fold to a raise, so you definitely don't want to PC yourself. But I think close to half pot is a nice amount that top pair can call, that charges a draw, and that lets you get away if he raises. Then he calls. That says he is either on a draw, or has top pair and won't drop it. I think the odds of his min-raising top pair are higher than the odds of his min-raising a draw. And if he has a draw, but won't bluff when checked to, then you lose nothing by betting the river. So I bet as much as I think he'll call with top pair: 125.

mother_brain · #10 06-13-2005, 10:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone seems to say bet more

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't include results next time.