He just won't call

[derk]

I play online and live and sometimes I end up playing with guys who just won't call a bet unless they have a "winning hand" (Top pair, meduim two-pair, trips). I was wondering how do extract maximum value from these players when you have a made hand (trips, straight, flush, quads).

thanks for the help

[tomdemaine]

um ... start bluffing? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

then that also means youll know if they have a hand when they bet or even raise / call.
there at a much bigger disadvantage playing super tight this way and will basically be telling you if they have a hand or not
just play it slow and even steal blinds if theyre known to fold easily. dont try and bluff if theyre calling you down and even trap if theyre betting into your monster hand thinking they for sure have you beat

[donkeyradish]

It sounds like maybe you are only betting when you actually have something in which case they are reading your play well

If you come in with a raise and 2 people call, the next bet should be automatic almost always, folding to any raise, obviously if your hand has no prospects.

If they are playing too tightly, the bets you gain from their folds, outweigh bets you lose when they have something.

And since you'll now be considered a habitual bluffer they will call more frequently

I find you can push these players around. If they only call with a winning hand, bet most flops heads up and lead the turn. These are easier players because they are predictable. If you see they only play 10% of hands, you can figure out their starting hands. But if they are tight rocks, you aren't going to extract maximum value often.

[jedi]

You can also more safely fold good (but not great) hands to a bet or raise.

[POKhER]

If they get aggressive, make sure you've got a dam good hand.

If they only play the best hands, bet with middle pairs and draws. These guys will fold often givign you their blinds.

On the otherhand, if they call you and get aggresive when they hit their hands... just value bet relentlessly.

However by tight i assume that means they fold alot, So if they fold often... and you dont... The pots they fold in.... Contain cash... that cash goes to the one who didn't fold... being you.

Now, When they do bet you can fold unless your hand is fairly strong... then we go to showdown and may the best hand win.

So not only do you get cash when they fold to your bets(i.e. they play "fit or fold" newbie tag style) but you also win when your hand is very powerfull.

Win Win... Awesome.

first he says:
[ QUOTE ]
If they get aggressive, make sure you've got a dam good hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

then he tells you
[ QUOTE ]
However by tight i assume that means they fold alot, So if they fold often... and you dont... The pots they fold in.... Contain cash... that cash goes to the one who didn't fold... being you.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is nonsense. If the table is very tight (Online, tight tables just get tighter, every tight player is trying to get into the good games so that they can? You guessed it, be tight!) you will have a shot at stealing the blinds 2 times out of 5 rounds. Let's say you're successful 1 time for every 2 (that's very generous). You will capture .75BB. When you lose, mostly you'll be raised. Either you abandon your hand, with an overall EV of +.25, MAYBE, or you'll call. Since youre playing tight players, most of the time you'll lose if you call. And the tight player will make you pay for every round you persist. Now then, if you've got a few tight players and the rest are loose, you're struggling with other loose players for the green. It doesn't "belong" to you, it just isnt monopolized by the tight players. Generally, among the looser players will be one or two holding very good hands, too. It is better to imitate the tight players in this scenario. However, this is at least a positive EV for you. But it goes to underscore my advice at the end of this reply.


[ QUOTE ]
bet with middle pairs and draws. they'll often fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
If we're talking blinds here, that has been addressed above. If we're talking playing a hand against other players in a non-theft position, you have to remember, if the table is tight, usually it's very tight. This means you're betting into 2 or 3 players in a full ring game who will always raise your opening, and raise you with very strong holdings. Now you're either folding on the raise forthwith, or paying double to see the flop: only 1 time in 8 will the flop set you. So, you're paying 6BB to 8BB to 12BB, preflop, depending on the raises, to win 1 pot. Against tight players, mostly they'll fold on the flop, so it's unlikely you'll win your money back. Every player that plays big ring games I've read or heard, advises working with premium hands, or fold (there are exceptions, but this is mostly true, and to simplify the argument, I'll treat it as if it were an absolute). As I said, you might be able to employ this strategy from the cutoff or MP3, but it's situational. This situation is: if everybody at the table figures to be clearing a bonus, you MIGHT get away with it. But it takes a lot of experience and alertness to know when this IS the situation. Generally, you're on razor thin ice in all these situations, imho.

[ QUOTE ]
On the otherhand, if they call you and get aggresive when they hit their hands... just value bet relentlessly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where is this guy playing? In a zoo, with monkies? If a tight player gets aggressive with his "made hand", you're not value betting your hand, you're throwing your money away. You'd better have the nuts here, or damn close! The fact is, if you're playing with tight players, it's going to be difficult to profit. The house loves it, all those know it alls off pounding on one another, and leaving their softer clients alone. You shouldn't.

And lastly, this gem: [ QUOTE ]
Win Win... Awesome.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which strongly biases me to the monkey theory, you know?

The number one advice to any player, ok? Any player? Game selection.

The number two advice to any player, you ready? Seat selection.

Once you have some idea of openings, and a general understanding of flop play, nothing you will EVER learn, will profit you as much as these two facts.

So, stop trying to beat these guys: go find softer games. Maybe, if you grow in experience, study, and have some talent (this is a word more acceptable to the mathematicians that frequent this place than "luck") then you can try them again, and who knows? Wipe their asses.

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
On the otherhand, if they call you and get aggresive when they hit their hands... just value bet relentlessly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where is this guy playing? In a zoo, with monkies? If a tight player gets aggressive with his "made hand", you're not value betting your hand, you're throwing your money away. You'd better have the nuts here, or damn close!

[/ QUOTE ]

My understanding of Pokher's post, which is not necessarily the correct understanding, is that it meant to value bet your hand before they complete their draw. A truly tight player isn't going to overpay to see his draw through to the river, though, so I'm not sure that value betting is going to produce that many bad calls (which is what you're hoping for). It is going to deny the tight player proper odds, though, which is more important than getting a (now correct!) call.

Certainly value betting after the tight player makes a hand is fruitless without a better hand, so if that's what Pokher meant, I agree that it's nonsense.

And regardless, I agree with those who've opined that against a table of weak-tight players you want to bluff selectively, both preflop (when bluffing goes under the special name "blind stealing") and postflop. However, beginners really shouldn't remain at such a table. I still consider myself too inexperienced to really be comfortable in such a game, although the Absolute $1/2 LHE and at times even the 10c-25c NLHE tables are good practice for playing in tight games without losing a lot of capital.

[derk]

I was in a live game hand recently this is how it went.

NL hold'em tourney

Blinds 200/400

Hero- $ 7500, Villian- $8000

Villain is just like this stereotype we're talking about he only bets when he thinks he has something.

Folds to Hero in SB with K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img],K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Hero Raises to 1600; Vilian in BB calls

Flop: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img],5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Hero bets 800; Villian re-raises to 1600; Hero calls

Turn: 10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Hero checks, Villian bets 800; hero re-raises to 1600; Villian calls

Flop: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Hero checks; Villian goes All- In; Hero Folds


Villian turns over 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] I put him on 7,8 -he's known to play these hands and thinks they are great preflop hands.

My question is since I know he only bets with what he thinks is a good hand did I play this right or wrong or otherwise??

thanks for your help.