How to fold overpairs? Help me learn!

[ericlambi]

I have a huge problem folding overpairs, and to a lesser extent, TPTK. To me, the issue is that by the time I have enough information to feel that I'm beat, the pot odds are great enough relative to my stack size that I feel committed. Here is an example (made up) from 6 max . . . teach me when and how to fold!

6 max, everyone has 50BB stacks
Hero is UTG with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], raises to 4BB.
2 folds, CO calls, SB calls, BB folds.

Pot size pre-flop: 13BB. My stack: 46BB.

Flop: K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Not a terrible flop, not great. SB checks. Hero bets 10BB. CO folds. SB (min-)raises to 20BB.

Pot size at this point: 43BB. My stack: 36BB.

Now to me, this is decision time. The villain could have a ton of different hands in this position -- AK, KQ, KJ, QJ, two diamonds, or he could interpret your bet as standard continuation and just be testing you with some crap like AJ. Of course, you could be in trouble vs 44,TT, or even KK. It seems to me you are probably ahead at least 50% of the time here. Agree or disagree?

If you call the min raise, your stack size becomes 26BB and the pot now has 53BB. Even if the villain open pushes the turn, can you fold getting 3-1?

Raising doesn't help much, even a min-raise leaves you with a tiny stack and a huge pot -- you can't fold the hand at any future point after this.

So when and how do you get away from this hand (or do you)?

The same dilemma comes if the villain calls your flop bet, the turn is a blank, and he checks to you. You cannot make a meaningful bet without pot committing can you?

What if the flop is slighly less scary, say

T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

or even if it is completely drawless:

Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

How does the decision change?

Does the villain's c/r size matter? If it is all-in versus a min-raise, does that change anything? What about somewhere in between -- 25BB?


I just can't figure out how to get away from these hands with the given stack sizes. Admittedly, the problem isn't quite as bad if you only go to the flop with 2 players, meaning you start from a smaller pot size.

Any general advice about how and when you get away from these hands? I'd love to hear it!

Thanks,

Eric

[punter11235]

[ QUOTE ]
have a huge problem folding overpairs, and to a lesser extent, TPTK.

[/ QUOTE ]

First step is to realize that TPTK is usually much better hand than an overpair.

[BigBiceps]

Push all in on the flop. If you are beat oh well, but KQ and junk will call enough in the long run to make you a winner.

You want to charge JQ or diamonds to see the turn.

[ericlambi]

Errr . . . other than the fact that TPTK has more outs to improve, how do you figure? Since one of villain's most likely holdings in this scenario (and many other possible scenarios) is TPTK and you have that beat, I don't understand your logic.

[RiverFenix]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
have a huge problem folding overpairs, and to a lesser extent, TPTK.

[/ QUOTE ]

First step is to realize that TPTK is usually much better hand than an overpair.

[/ QUOTE ]

?

[gol4pro]

in 6-max, I'm all in on the turn here EVERY TIME given the stack sizes without a REALLY damn good read.

Raise more PF to get money committed on flop if you want.

Folding overpairs in SSNL is usually read-based.

I see more reraises recently as a defense against continuation bet. Check the flop against a raise and then re-raise when I think villian misses. I do it myself sometiems. I don't see too many instances where your behind here. TPTK is a likely bet as is trying to pick up a free card with the diamond draw if you check the turn. I call and then come back hard on the turn assuming it's not a big scare card...

[RoundersRocks!]

You can't figure it out without a read. Folding overpairs is a big part of what reading is all about.

To avoid the situation without reads, you can raise more pre-flop. It either avoids the flop completely or forces a greater amount of the action to a occurat a point where you are definately in the lead. With shorter stack sizes it makes a diffrence.

[rikz]

The 'ole check-min-raise is a pretty popular set tactic against an aggressive pre-flop raiser. If a totally passive post-flop player check-minraises from EP after just calling preflop, then maybe you can fold there. You're only out the preflop raise and continuation bet, and a guy with 0.75 Total Post-Fold Aggression factor just doesn't check-minraise from EP into the preflop raiser without something really good.

Against most tight preflop/aggressive post-flop villains (rocks like 12%/4%/3.0), you're probably beaten here too.

Against cautious, smart, aggressive but not overly aggressive players who don't overplay TPTK, then you can call the min-raise, give a free card if he check to you on the turn, and call villain's "value bet" on the river. If he bets 1/2 pot or more again on the turn, you should probably fold, unless it's a micro bet, that you can call. If he's drawing, he paid for it with the min-raise. Probably have to fold to an obvious scare card on the river if he bets big. That's the price of giving the free card to exercise some pot control.

Against LAGs, TAGs who bluff and semi-bluff with an optimal frequency, and maniacs, you probably just push versus the min-re-raise and pay off his set if he caught it. Against these guys, they will be drawing or playing a weaker hand often enough to make this play at least neutral EV and they will be less inclined to try and run over you in later hands. This is probably even more true at 6-max than full ring, I would think.

So, as another poster said, since this is read dependent, then work on you reads. In the absence of reads, get Poker Ace HUD or something and use some notes to at least make educated guesses on general behavior patterns.

[XChamp]

[ QUOTE ]


First step is to realize that TPTK is usually much better hand than an overpair.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is this true?