Stop and Go - correct spot?

#1 10-23-2005, 08:56 PM

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t1200 (9 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

MP3 (t7200)
CO (t34770)
Button (t11762)
SB (t10116)
Hero (t6898)
UTG (t21318)
UTG+1 (t8747)
MP1 (t7094)
MP2 (t6530)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to t3600, 6 folds, Hero calls t2400.

This hand was during the 500k Guarenteed at Stars. Only read on UTG+1 is that he is a horrible player. Too loose with his calls and doesn't understand position or any other poker theory for that matter. An all around donk.

I posted this in the 500k and was told the move was incorrect and I should have pushed preflop. After reading through the anthology (Raymer's Stop and Go Post), I feel that this is the exact spot I want to use the stop and go. I'm willing to go broke here and I'm not folding this hand, if I push here he has to call but I may get him to fold the better hand if a scary flop hits.

I am reposting it to see what people feel. I will post the results after seeing what the general feeling is without them.

TomHimself · #2 10-23-2005, 08:58 PM

this is terrible spot for sng. hands you dominate fold the flop push and hnads you lose 2 call the flop push. but hands you dominate call your pf push

#3 10-23-2005, 09:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
this is terrible spot for sng. hands you dominate fold the flop push and hnads you lose 2 call the flop push. but hands you dominate call your pf push

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you read Raymer's post in the anthology? If so I take it you disagree with it. Also look at the stack sizes and the raise... he's not folding any hand to a push preflop, but may to a post flop push on a scary board.

TomHimself · #4 10-23-2005, 09:05 PM

y do you want him to fold when you have the best hand? you jsut said it hes not folding PF, yet 70% of the time you prolly have best hand and want him to come along

ansky451 · #5 10-23-2005, 09:05 PM

Do you not understand that there are way more hands that you want him to call with, then you want him to fold?

Proofrock · #6 10-23-2005, 09:24 PM

Personally, I don't want him to fold. I want to double my <7BB stack.

Your read on villain is he's a donk who is TOO LOOSE WITH HIS CALLS. a sng with what is probably the best hand can't possibly be applied here -- he won't fold ANY hand that is ahead of yours preflop. in fact, he probably won't fold much of anything. against this opponent, it doesn't really matter what you do if you're getting it all-in on the flop anyway. might as well push preflop and expect to be a favorite or a coinflip.

Why do you want to wait, and why do you want him to fold any hand other than AA-QQ or AK (none of which he's ever folding)?

-cj

LearnedfromTV · #7 10-23-2005, 10:14 PM

Edit: I just read the Raymer thread and see I confused it with another thread I read about this concept with a Raymer-played hand. Based on what he said, I wonder if some of my logic may be wrong. I'll leave my post as is, though, in the hopes that some one can correct me if i've gone wrong somewhere....

One (potential) reason for you to do this is to fold out a pair when you miss. The problem is, if you miss, the medium pair sees a relatively safe board. You are more likely to get 88 to fold with the Stop and Go when you hit than when you miss. This is bad.

Another (potential) reason, which simulates the standard medium pair stop and go, is to fold out a hand that has six outs against you, which would have odds to call on the flop but might fold, whereas it would always call preflop. This only happens if he has a Kx or Jx hand where x<Q,and you both miss. This is fine, if he happens to have one of these hands, but it's not a good enough reason because the combination of him having KJ/KT/JT/worse, and folding when you both flop overcards (he'll often call anyway) doesn't happen often enough to make up times:

a) you hit and want a call you don't get

b) he folds a dominated hand when you both miss, and with only three outs, you want the dominated hand calling.

I believe the Raymer thread has him with A9, which is very different from AQ, in that there is much greater chance that he will be able to fold out a hand that dominates him, since there are so many more. There is also a better chance that he only has one overcard versus a pair (99-JJ) in which case he is better off waiting until the flop brings overcards to that pair and trying to get a fold than taking the "see all five cards" coin flip you generally want in this spot with two overcards. He can hit his 9 and still be behind, much easier than you can hit your Q and be behind.

The standard case, a medium pair, is a good candidate because the hands you are getting to fold have more turn/river outs than you. The reverse is true if you hold the overcards.