Learning hold em for a total beginner

[SNOWBALL138]

I'm not sure where this post belongs, but I'm going to crosspost it on the psych and beginners forums and maybe I can get a response.

A friend of mine was telling me that he was thinking of selling drugs on the side to supplement his income, so I'm like "wtf, why don't you just learn to play poker?"

To my surprise, he says "ok, will you teach me?"

Being a good friend, I agree to teach him. I'm trying to figure out the best way to do this, because he is a complete beginner. I don't think he's ever even played penny ante or anything resembling poker. I'd be surprised if he's ever placed a bet in his life.

I want to go about this in the right way. I gave him Getting started in hold em by Ed Miller, and told him that anytime he wants to, he can come over to my apartment for free lessons. I thought of the following ways of teaching him. Please feel free to add any suggestions.

I would play just one table, and explain to him everything that is happening. Like explaining the blinds, and the button, and the betting order. I would explain how to identify the nuts, and teach him how to read the board.

After he got a small foundation like that, I would play more tables, and begin to show him some principles of winning play. I'd probably just play .50/1 tables, because those are the tables that he needs to learn to beat first anyway.

After watching me for a while, I would quiz him on what he thinks I should do and why. Finally, I would close every table except for one, and have him play it by himself. I would want him to just play the table on his own, and then I would maybe comment after he was done with the hand.

After we did a session like this, I would use a HH replayer to go over some of the hands we played step by step, and anaylze whats going on in those hands.

After we did a few of these sessions, I would encourage him to open up an account with rakebake, and do some bonuswhoring. I would want him to telephone me when he was having problems.

Have any of you tried to teach one of your friends how to play poker? I really don't want him to learn on his own, and go through what I went through (losing money, playing on bad mega-tilt, trying to recoup losses by playing for higher stakes, playing for too high stakes in general etc.)

OTOH, I'm wondering how much of this is avoidable. I know its inevitable for my friend to be a losing player for some period of time. I just want to minimize this.

[xniNja]

I might normally post something witty and elaborate, but I'm getting tired and this is going to be one of my last posts for today...

1) Are you a winning hold'em player?

I find it hard to believe- if you're trying to set your friend up playing those limits- you would know there's no point playing those limits for him at all... not for $ or practice.

If you are- I would have thought you'd have him start playing at a limit that is not only beatable, but worthwhile.

2) There is a rule, that goes back many years before anyone alive was born... the gist of it is "What a man does for a living is none of my business."

You should repeat that to yourself 3-4 times until you are convinced that it is true.

3) Mathematics. Selling drugs for him is not only +EV while poker is -EV in the status quo, it's greater by an infinite margin... he only stands to profit.

Sure he could get hauled away by the DEA or whoever else, but that's unlikely... like getting kicked out of a casino for swearing.

My personal, unprofessional, unnofficial, but 100% real and pragmatic analysis:

It's nice you want to teach him poker, that's fine.. keep doing it.
Those limits are a joke.
He should have some other income/money/bankroll... if it's dealing drugs, then it's dealing drugs... or something else.

Finally, I don't like the way you assume he will be a losing player initially, if you are to teach him. This implies either he is stupid, you are a bad teacher, or you don't know what to teach him. If you're going to take it upon yourself to derail his intended course and teach him poker, you better know what you're doing- and he better win.

[jb9]

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2) There is a rule, that goes back many years before anyone alive was born... the gist of it is "What a man does for a living is none of my business."

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In this context (a friend asking for help), this is lousy advice. Old rules are not inherently or universally good.

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Sure he could get hauled away by the DEA or whoever else, but that's unlikely...

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Blech...

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
1) Are you a winning hold'em player?

I find it hard to believe- if you're trying to set your friend up playing those limits- you would know there's no point playing those limits for him at all... not for $ or practice.

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That's just asinine. I happen to believe that there is value to learning to beat super-loose games. It teaches discipline and playing correctly while getting sucked out on. Furthermore you'll see ultra-loose games at least up to Foxwoods $4/8. Admittedly I am still a relative beginner, and I know many will discount my opinion accordingly. I don't blame them.

More to the point, reasonable minds may differ on this and many other issues. The number of people on this site who mistake self-assuredness for ignorant dogmatism is just astounding.

[xniNja]

Think simple math. If you believe the statistics on general winners in poker, 1-2BB an hour at .5/1 is $1-2 an hour.. who can live off that? Now subtract whatever edge you had as a solid player, due to the variance induced by 4-5 calling stations seeing every river. You aren't left with any money, or any real understanding of how the game works... at any reasonable level. You can call it dogma, but I'll admit I didn't understand most of what I'm talking about until I started playing 10-20 and 20-40.

If you want me to state it more explicitly; In my opinion, the "value" gained from learning to beat super-loose games (like .01/.02 or higher) is not only negligible, it's counterproductive in building a foundation for winning money at poker... assuming you live in America where $1-2 an hour can be found in my couch.

I stand by my decree, if you aim to earn a *living* or make a *profession* out of poker... you are hurting yourself.

[AKQJ10]

I appreciate your efforts to argue this point on its merits. I'm at work so I can't reply at length, but in short I would imagine that succeeding in bigger games requires adapting to a wide variety of game conditions including very loose games (though admittedly, not as loose as low-limits). I can't image that a player unable to adapt would be very good at higher limits. Do you agree?

[shermn27]

I think that reading and playing are the two most obvious ways for him to learn. "Getting Started in Hold'em" is probably the perfect first book. I would also go for "Small Stakes Hold'em" after that. Then probably Theory of Poker (personally I think it defines pot odds, implied odds, and reverse implied odds the best of the texts I have read).

I think playing hands with cards face up and "fake" players would be a good idea too. How about watching some old WSOP tapings on TV so that he can watch players and see their cards (be sure that he knows these players play in ways that he doesn't even want to think about yet). But it will at least get him more exposure to the game.

I think that you should just start with a single table when you are playing and he is watching. Him watching you multi-table is going to be hard to keep up with and is really just you showing off. (You can show off once he knows how to play on one table).

Then let him play. And yeah, I think the .50/1 games are a great idea. Anyone who says you are going to lose money because too many calling stations are calling you down just doesn't know how to beat that game and should read SSHE. Besides, I really think you can make a solid side income from the low limit games ($2-4, $3-6) if you play 4 tables at a time.

Like anything else (incl. poker) I think the key will be patience. Your patience with him not to push him to far and his patience with learning and winning. Good luck.

[krimson]

More simple math.

4bb/100 at .5/1 (or $4/100 hands) is an attainable win rate.

4-tabling you can play approximately 250 hands/hr, so our hourly win rate increases to (250/100)x$4 = $10 / hr.

This is better than minimum wage in the USA i'm assuming? Tack on some bonuswhoring for anywhere between $5-$30/hr, and you have some very profitable micro-limit poker.

p.s. Drug dealing is -EV. The easy access to drugs leads to increased use, meaning your spending more of your profits than you expect, tack on getting ripped off and running the risk of being arrested, etc. I'm not sure how you can suggest this is a better idea than learning to play poker.

[shermn27]

[ QUOTE ]
More simple math.

4bb/100 at .5/1 (or $4/100 hands) is an attainable win rate.

4-tabling you can play approximately 250 hands/hr, so our hourly win rate increases to (250/100)x$4 = $10 / hr.

This is better than minimum wage in the USA i'm assuming? Tack on some bonuswhoring for anywhere between $5-$30/hr, and you have some very profitable micro-limit poker.

p.s. Drug dealing is -EV. The easy access to drugs leads to increased use, meaning your spending more of your profits than you expect, tack on getting ripped off and running the risk of being arrested, etc. I'm not sure how you can suggest this is a better idea than learning to play poker.

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Agreed [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[SNOWBALL138]

You forgot about rakeback [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]