How do you play overcards when you miss the flop.

[diconoclastx]

I know this is situationally dependent, but at the $5-10 6 max game, how do you guys play unimproved overcards like AK-AJ and KQ?

I have been using PT to analyze my game lately and found one of my biggest leaks is losing many of these pots betting/raising the flop and betting it down/possibly slowing down the river and calling a river bet. Consider two situations:

1) You raise PF and one/two callers. Flop is rags, or Q, J with rags. What do you do if it is checked to you (on the latter streets as well)?

2) Someone bets into your unimproved AK/AQ, what do you do?

Do any of you guys bet/raise the flop, check the turn, and fold to a river bet? Or is that a weak line?

[winky51]

I assume you ave position on them.
Depends on a lot of things. So lets look at a few.

THE PLAYER
calls down with A high? - very often
calls down with nothing? - rare
calls down with any pair? - very often
raise when he has a pair? - maybe
what kind of hands would he call you with?

FLOP: Look at the texture. lets say you got AsKs
#1 Tc 5d 2h FLOP uncoordinated
#2 7c 2h 6c FLOP drawing flop
#3 Qc Th 4d FLOP high card and draw flop

Flop #1 There is no draw so the player calling can only have a pair or Ace high. You have to determine the player before you bet the turn or call a bet on the river. In this example you have nothing except an real bitch of a backdoor draw. If raised here on the turn I would fold if its a common player, loose not aggresive.

Flop #2 this is a super drawing flop and you missed it completely. A player betting into you or calling is most likely on the draw of some sort. Technically he is ahead but the money in the pot allows you to continue. At worst case he has 2 live cards for the pair and a 9 flush for a total of 15 cards 54.1% favorite. So make him pay for his draw. if a danger card comes up, like a club or part of the str8 draw then you gotta slow down. For the str8 a 9,8,5,4 can beat you here but not because he made the draw but because he made a pair from one of his draw cards.

Flop #3: This one can be tricky you might have 10 outs A, K, 4 jacks, or one of your cards is counterfeit (he has AT, KT, KQ but you will know quickly how many outs you have. A player will generally raise here with a pair on the flop. If they bet I like to raise becuse it will buy you a free turn usually and give you a shot at your gut or overcards.

But all these situation really depends on the players.
Some players I have recorded will literally call down with nothing hoping to catch a pair so I will generally always bet bet check.

Some players always raise you on the flop with a pair, so I look at my outs and play accordingly.

Some players raise you with only top pair.

Some bluff and you play accordingly depending on the flop. A good example is a LAG that calls with any ace. So the flop comes 732 you bet he raises. Well pretty good bet he has nothing too. So this hand I would continue.

one thing I do is if I have nothing I check on the river if checked to me. If he has a draw he will not call. If he has a pair he will call and you lose $10. No money made there. Many players don't believe in online tells but I do. You see a guy quickly call he is on a draw usually. The longer he delays thinking usually the weaker the hand. But I won't get into those details.

So read the flop texture, think about what kind of hands the player calls with, and what kind of player is he. Then decide what to do.

[cartman]

Winky's input is excellent. I think conceptually it often boils down to the likelihood that your opponent has at least a pair. Heads up against an unknown player or one who I haven't seen pull this move with less than a pair (a draw for instance) my standard line on the flop is as follows (assume that the flop is not all of one suit and is Q high or less and I have AK):

If I raised preflop, I'm in position, and he leads into me on the flop:
1)Raise the flop and call if he 3-bets
2)Fold unimproved on the turn if he bets
3)Check behind him on the turn if he checks and use your judgment when he automatically bets on the river (usually fold unless the board leads me to believe he may have a busted draw)

If I raised pf, I'm in position and he checkraises me on the flop:
(same line as above, but I'm even less inclined to call the river)

If I raised pf, I'm out of position, I bet and he raises me on the flop:
1) call the flop raise
2) fold unimproved on the turn

Against an aggressive opponent who often makes these moves with a draw or less, the situation is one of the most difficult in the entire game in my opinion. There are plenty of posts in the archives on this topic. One particular by Peter_rus was excellent. It is titled "Flop raise HU situation deeper analysis" and it was posted on 2/4/05. I would post the link but I am a computer moron and I don't know how! Keep in mind the opponent he is talking about is VERY aggressive and pretty rare at 5/10. I think you would be far better off erring on the side of the above approach especially until you become more comfortable in this situation.

Cartman

[TheCleverOne]

I think two previous posts are perfect. Would just like to add, that I bet flop everytime in 10/20 when I have raised preflop and its checked to me on flop.
And I think its not a bad line.

[cartman]

Cleverone,

Is that regardless of the number of opponents? (The betting the flop every time when checked to after raising preflop)

Thanks,
Cartman

[paco]

The first two posts are excellent. Showing hands when you take a strong line with a made hand I think helps. I would add that you want to do a enough check raising with your overpairs or when you have top pair with that one high card (against aggressive opponents--and as long as free cards aren't a major problem [board not too coordinated]). A bet out on the flop is a lot more likely to work with only overcards when you have shown you play strong hands strongly and mix it up with the take the 'bet (flop), check-raise (turn) line.' Also it will buy you a free card when they're 'trained' to check behind.

Incomplete information is the name of the game, so varying play goes a long way towards giving you control of the table and leaving your opponents heads spinning [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].

[trotski]

thanks for this post guys. i've recently found the wonder that is 6-max, and had the exact same question as the OP. great response winky, most helpful.

[captZEEbo1]

[ QUOTE ]
I think two previous posts are perfect. Would just like to add, that I bet flop everytime in 10/20 when I have raised preflop and its checked to me on flop.
And I think its not a bad line.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it is on 5/10 =P
It's board dependent, and how many players seeing the flop dependent.