AT, pair A... heavy flop action

mhlandry · #1 10-20-2005, 06:23 PM

No real reads, it's been about 20 hands at the table. This has happened to me a couple of times in my last few k hands. Not sure what I can do here.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, CO raises, Button 3-bets, SB folds, BB folds, Hero folds, CO calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
CO bets, Button raises, CO calls.

River: (10 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
CO checks, Button bets, CO calls.

Final Pot: 12 BB

#2 10-20-2005, 06:53 PM

(grunching)

pre-flop: (hold on a sec)

flop: I don't think we need to fold this flop. We're probably not out-kicked (nobody raised pre-flop), but we may be up against 2-pair or a set. But hey let's get back to pre-flop.

pre-flop: I will raise AT from MP, but I may just toss it from MP1. Raising it is making small pairs pay a higher premium to see the flop, and so their implied odds go down. but let's get back to flop.

flop: If we call here, we're getting 5:1 to call. One villain may be betting his draw, while other villain is betting two pair. there is no straight. If the board pairs, we have a good chance of winning this. [to others: what are the odds?]. We also have some back door straight possibilities. I'd like to look at the turn. Action may slow down there.

#3 10-20-2005, 07:12 PM

This is post 100 for loyalguard..."and there was much rejoicing...meh!"

*Grunch*

Preface: Don't post what happens after you fold...it skews the replies.

Preflop: Raise ATs w/ no raise in front and from MP. You have to maximize the advantage that ATs gives you: The possibility of Top Pair/Good Kicker or a flush. I would only limp with these cards if it is a really tight table.

Flop: I like the lead out. We have TPGK, so this is a good bet to protect...the two re-reraise after are unfortunate. Assuming we need to improve to win I do not think we have odds to call two more bets vs. 2 unknowns so the fold is ok. Flame away...

I think betting preflop could have slowed the villians action on the flop and give us more breathing room to continue...

Felipe · #4 10-20-2005, 07:13 PM

*grunch*

Preflop I don't play at party. If they cold call a lot preflop, raise this preflop. If it a tight table (which i doubt at .5/1 anywhere) calling could be a consideration.

Flop 11:2 back to you, hmm. 5.5:1. This is messy! Passive players, I'd likely fold. Against aggressive players, why didn't they raise preflop with a bigger ace than ours! This would have changed the action (i believe) had we raised A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Who are we up against? Tighties? Aggros? LPP fish? A read on any of the active players would change my decision. I think that this is a very read dependent choice here. Again - messy!
[btw. There is a nice Ed Miller Quiz about ATs preflop.]

the turn and river don't matter. And now that you folded the hand - what are the results?

mhlandry · #5 10-20-2005, 08:05 PM

Normally I'd even raise ATo, but lately I've noticed that even at the .5/1 tables I'm getting 3bet more often with this many people left to act behind me. I'm definitely seeing this flop, but when I do get 3bet it makes me very unhappy.

As far as the flop goes, I've seen more stupid preflop limps at .5/1 then ever recently. People limping with AKs from any position, KK, etc.

Sorry about posting the action after I folded, I was unaware. I'll keep that in mind for next time.

I didn't get a chance to see what button had, but co won the hand w/ A6o. So I would've won unimproved. This is the third or fourth time that I can remember folding the best hand (say a good one pair) to mega action by two or three players. Happened once when I had KJ, flopped the K and everyone went apeshit on the flop. Somebody with a weaker kicker got me to fold it out.

Does anyone think that I'm ahead on the flop? I couldn't see it, but maybe I've not played .5/1 in too long.

As far as raising preflop limiting the action on the flop, check this hand out:

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, SB 3-bets, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero caps, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (24 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB bets, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (15 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB bets, BB raises, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, SB calls.

River: (25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 25 BB

With that action preflop, and that board, I didn't see how I could win the hand. However my KK was good. You'd think someone would at least be able to beat 1 pair with all of those callers. Or would you?

Disconnected · #6 10-20-2005, 08:39 PM

For the original hand, I would limp AT behind some other limpers. Depending on the table, I might limp or might raise from EP. If I'm first or second in from MP or later, I'd normally raise it. There are some hands that are borderline between raising and limping, but as a default play, although there will be a lot of debate, I don't think there's a massive difference either way. It really depends on the rest of the table, how they view you, who has limped, your position, etc. That flop is pretty uncomfortable, but as you noted, most anything you're behind to should have raised pre-flop. The bet is good, and I don't think I would fold without reads. I don't know, though. You've got outs to improve/chop.

For the second hand, were you complaining that you couldn't thin the field by raising? First of all, you did (CO and button folded, giving you the button the rest of the hand). Second of all, you should love the fact that people aren't folding to your raises, when you're raising with KK [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img].

Postflop, you should be raising that flop. You've got an overpair and a gutshot draw, with 2 stoppers to the only straight that would beat you. You've got a huge equity edge on the flop, and you should be pushing it hard in such a large pot. I'd be sitting on the bet/raise button until someone gave me a pretty good reason to slow down.

#7 10-20-2005, 08:40 PM

Raise that flop up. I think you have a very good chance of being ahead but it depends on what range sb will 3 bet with. I think raising the flop can help define his hand. If he's a sneaky git who'll re-raise AK wait till the turn.

numeri · #8 10-20-2005, 08:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, SB 3-bets, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero caps, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (24 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB bets, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls ?!?!?!

[/ QUOTE ]
Why did you just call? You realize that you have an overpair and an open-ended straight draw, right?

mhlandry · #9 10-20-2005, 09:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, SB 3-bets, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero caps, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (24 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB bets, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls ?!?!?!

[/ QUOTE ]
Why did you just call? You realize that you have an overpair and an open-ended straight draw, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Gutshot.

And I'm playing weak right now bc I'm trying to get over my move up to 2/4 where KK was -25BB. I've lost my nerve.

tyler_cracker · #10 10-20-2005, 09:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, SB 3-bets, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero caps, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (24 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB bets, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls ?!?!?!

[/ QUOTE ]
Why did you just call? You realize that you have an overpair and an open-ended straight draw, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, no OESD, just a gutshot.

Second of all, raising this flop sucks. Call and raise the turn.