Stop and Go Criteria

[tewall]

From an article of Jeremiah Smith:

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1. You are in one of the blinds

2. You will be heads-up

3. You have at least 8 times the big blind preflop

4. Your opponent has a similar stack size or a little more.


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If you find yourself with a hand like 4-4 or A-10 and your blind is raised, your first impulse is to usually just push all-in before the flop. Sometimes a better option is to just call from the blind with the intention of pushing all-in no matter what the flop brings. Why? Because you give yourself an extra chance of making your opponent fold, often with the better hand.


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What do you think of this advice? What criteria do you use for stop and go?

[tigerite]

Well those 4 are all well and good, but the absolute most important factor is the read on your opponent!

[wiggs73]

More generally, you should be first to act on the flop and feel that you have no fold equity pre-flop, but some post-flop. It's also helpful if your hand has some showdown value.

[tipperdog]

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More generally, you should be first to act on the flop and feel that you have no fold equity pre-flop, but some post-flop. It's also helpful if your hand has some showdown value.

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This is exactly right, IMO. Also key is when you have a hand that's vulnerable and your post flop push may induce a bad fold.

For example:

You have 77 in the BB with blinds of 100/200. You have 800 chips before posting. A loose raiser miniraises to 400.

If you push pre-flop, miniraiser almost certainly calls--and that call will almost certainly be correct. If you stop 'n' go, he might fold a hand like JK post-flop, despite having correct odds to call. But put yourself in his shoes (with a hand like KJ). If the flop comes Q83, and you push, that's a pretty tough call.

Of course, if he makes the "right" decision and calls, it's no loss to you. It would have been the same result as a pre-flop push from you anyway.

[tigerite]

Thing is you don't want him to fold KJ there if you only have 600 left, because your hand has such great showdown strength and actually wants to be in as a 55% favourite or whatever.

Now, if you could somehow guarantee he'd fold 88 and 99 there or something on an AKT flop.. then it's very different.

[tipperdog]

No. Recheck my example (I set up all these chip counts to illustrate a "perfect" stop-n-go situation--I agree they're rare in STTs). You have 800 before the hand starts. You post 200 and call an additional 200 PF. You now have T400 left and the pot is T900. When you push, he is offered better than 3:1 odds (1,300:400), which means he SHOULD call with KJ. If he folds, it's a "bad" fold and you make $$.

[tigerite]

Who cares about his odds though? I want the extra 400 chips because I am ahead of his hand, and you shouldn't be afraid to take a 55/45 when you are short stacked like that, unless it's on the bubble and there's a micro stack or some other ridiculous situation. You WANT to be all in as a favourite here!

[ZeroPointMachine]

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3. You have at least 8 times the big blind preflop



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This advice applies to MTTs. In a MTT 8BB can be a very small stack relative to the rest of the table/field and can justify this high risk move. In a STT 8BB is a healthy stack and there are better ways to use it.

If you never use a stop-n-go in a STT you will be much better off than if you use it incorrectly even a small percentage of the time.

[tewall]

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If you never use a stop-n-go in a STT you will be much better off than if you use it incorrectly even a small percentage of the time.


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Thanks. This is helpful advice, as it's difficult to know how to use it correctly. Lots of differing advice on this, and I've never seen any mathematical analysis.

[downtown]

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If you never use a stop-n-go in a STT you will be much better off than if you use it incorrectly even a small percentage of the time.


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Thanks. This is helpful advice, as it's difficult to know how to use it correctly. Lots of differing advice on this, and I've never seen any mathematical analysis.

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FWIW I almost never use the Stop n Go in STTs anymore. I would guess a good situation (where there aren't better ways to get chips, i.e. open pushing) to use it maybe once in 100 tourneys, but hey, that guess could be off by an order of magnitude, so whatever.

In MTTs I find it much more useful.