Two quick 6max hands. No pair no draw/Overbet with set on River

jhall23 · #1 09-26-2005, 10:01 AM

Haven't played much hold'em in the last month or two and had a few quick questions on some hands.

Hand 1:

Been at the table about 2 orbits, but have observed about 4. Villian in this hand is very, very lag. Something like 85/25/3. Post flop he will pretty much always bet in position if checked two and if not he will sometimes raise a flop bet or play sherif to take it away on another street. I have just picked up on this and have switched gears to not be making auto continuation bets against him. I was going to conceed the hand and then decided to c/r him all in since it isn't that much of an overbet with his stack.

Do you see any EV here?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

SB ($99)
BB ($99.25)
UTG ($32.85)
Hero ($100)
CO ($223)
Button ($48.10)

Preflop: Hero is MP with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises to $3.5, 1 fold, Button calls $3.50, 2 folds.

Flop: ($8.50) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $10, Hero raises to $50

Hand 2:

Villian in this hand is loose and very passive. On a previous hand I limped with something like 87 on the button after 2 or 3 limpers. Flop was checked around with a flush draw out. On turn someone made a weak lead which was called by this villian I raised pot and got a fold by one and called by villian. His nut flush came on the river and he checked and made no extra money.

I have been very aggro at this table. Raising lots of pot's pre-flop and winning with cb's on the flop.

Good spot for an over bet or should I milk? There's a good chance villian was drawing and if so he's not calling any bet, but if not maybe the overbet will look best.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (6 max, 4 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

SB ($92.95)
BB ($99.88)
Hero ($121)
Button ($12.97)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Hero raises to $3.5, 2 folds, BB calls $2.50.

Flop: ($7.50) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $6, BB calls $6.

Turn: ($19.50) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $15, BB calls $15.

River: ($49.50) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $80

TheWorstPlayer · #2 09-26-2005, 10:04 AM

Hand 1. Meh. Doubt he's folding a pair. Read my location.

Hand 2. Nice. Hope he made aces up on river. If he didn't, and doesn't have lower set, then you probably wouldn't make anything anyways.

Spladle Master · #3 09-26-2005, 10:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1. Meh. Doubt he's folding a pair. Read my location.

Hand 2. Nice. Hope he made aces up on river. If he didn't, and doesn't have lower set, then you probably wouldn't make anything anyways.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree, but note that we're probably not bluffing in hand one.

jhall23 · #4 09-26-2005, 10:55 AM

RE: Hand 1

I definetly agree he will rarely fold a pair. I was more thinking that his range is pretty close to any two cards and my hand might be good, but with his stack I can't get tricky so if I play I'm putting him to the test right there.

TheWorstPlayer · #5 09-26-2005, 11:00 AM

I see this move as high variance, potentially slightly +EV, more likely slightly -EV move. I mean, you're really unlikely to be ahead of his hand range here. He probably has a small pair either in the hole or with the board. He probably doesn't fold it. You could be ahead, possibly, but if there is any edge it is pretty small. If anything, I think the EV here might come from his calling you with a worse ace high...

Riposte · #6 09-26-2005, 11:06 AM

In hand 2, I'm confused what the overbet is for.

If he was drawing he folds. But if he paired an Ace, he will probably call anything, including a large overbet, since he's passive (does that mean calling station-esque)? Is that what's going on here?

I never use overbets and don't have any idea what they are used for or how to employ them.

Could someone explain their use, and why the OP wanted to use it in this hand? Thanks.

TheWorstPlayer · #7 09-26-2005, 11:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I never use overbets

[/ QUOTE ]
This is very bad.

[ QUOTE ]
Could someone explain their use, and why the OP wanted to use it in this hand? Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]
Use them whenever you think you have the best hand more than 50% of the time when called. And remember that people are about equally likely to call an overbet as they are to call a half pot bet. Check out this awesome hand.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

TWP ($219.60)
BB ($237)
UTG ($209)
MP ($85.40)
Button ($543.55)

Preflop: TWP is SB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. TWP posts a blind of $1.
UTG raises to $7, MP calls $7, Button calls $7, TWP (poster) calls $6, 1 fold.

Flop: ($30) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
TWP checks, UTG bets $22, MP calls $22, Button calls $22, TWP calls $212.60 (All-In), UTG calls $180 (All-In), MP calls $56.40 (All-In), Button folds.

Turn: ($545) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players, 3 all-in)

River: ($545) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players, 3 all-in)

Final Pot: $545

Results in white below: 
TWP has 7c Tc (one pair, sevens).
UTG has 9c Jc (one pair, nines).
MP has 9s Js (one pair, nines).
Outcome: UTG wins $390.80. MP wins $143.60. TWP wins $10.60. 

Now read my location. Now realise that if I had a set, I play goot. For chrissakes: the dude OVERCALLED here with TPJK.

Riposte · #8 09-26-2005, 11:22 AM

Haha WTF!

Ok so I guess I need to start doing this stuff. What exactly do you mean by using overbets when you think you have the best hand "more than 50% of the time when called?"

TheWorstPlayer · #9 09-26-2005, 11:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Haha WTF!

Ok so I guess I need to start doing this stuff. What exactly do you mean by using overbets when you think you have the best hand "more than 50% of the time when called?"

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I was really only talking about river value bets such as in the OP, but same as any river value bet, they are only +EV if you are ahead greater than 50% of the time that your opponent calls them. If they fold, it is 0 EV. They they call and you lose more often than you win it is -EV.

Riposte · #10 09-26-2005, 11:28 AM

Ok cool, thanks.