QTo, goes passive after a steal

bozlax · #1 12-18-2005, 05:58 PM

Fairly new to the table, just a couple of orbits, but it's looking pretty tight, pretty passive. Not enough hands on Villan to think much, but hadn't seen him get out of line, anywhere.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
4 folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, BB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Dodgy, but all the remaining players had been pretty tight for the few orbits I'd been at the table, and I'd only played one hand, it was a good one, and I played it hard. Figured I had a good shot at a full steal, at least get the button.

Flop: (6.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

River: (6.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.

Final Pot: 10.25 BB

I didn't want to slow him down if I was ahead and I didn't figure to be able to fold him, regardless.

Vote4Pedro · #2 12-18-2005, 06:06 PM

Lately I've been just calling down in these situations against unknown players...Obviously you bet if checked to

RustyCJ · #3 12-18-2005, 06:08 PM

raising this hand from this position is something I don't do. I normally wouldn't raise this hand except from the button.

Should I start raising this and QJo from MP3 and CO position?

Vote4Pedro · #4 12-18-2005, 06:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Should I start raising this and QJo from MP3 and CO position?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, especially if the table conditions are like the ones mentioned in the OP

Shillx · #5 12-18-2005, 06:42 PM

Boz

Do a lot of stealing against tight blinds. QT is a nice stealing hand at a table like you describe.

Calling down an unknown is fine, but your hand isn't strong enough to raise the river. In fact, call-call-raising in a spot like this is almost never correct. The key is that there is just about no way he is on a stone bluff. Say that you have

9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

And open in late position. Only an unknown BB calls and the flop is

A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

To your suprise he leads out. Now it would be a good time to call-call-raise if you miss your flush. So if the final board reads

A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

And he bets the turn and river, you would raise the river everytime. The key is that you would also be taking this line in this exact same spot with

A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

So if he has a pair of aces, he will usually be paying off our better kicker. If he was bluffing and is was drawing dead to our pair of aces, this line nets us the most since he puts in 2.5 BB with next to no equity. And if he has something like KQ [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] he can either payoff our AK or throw away the best hand when we pop 98 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

The problem in your hand is that the villian will have a stronger hand on average and he can't be bluffing. So when you flop something good, goto war right away for the biggest payoff. When you flop a marginal hand you calldown and you fold when you miss. The problem with the river raise is that it doesn't marginalize his good hands. So if you raise the river with a busted draw (when the board offers them), he calls with AQ and wins. If you raise with your QT, he calls with AQ and wins. You have to put him in a tougher spot on the river with that AQ. The only way to do it is to play something like a set of 8s this way, and that is terrible if he is ready to goto war on the flop with hands like KK and AQ.

bozlax · #6 12-18-2005, 07:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The key is that you would also be taking this line in this exact same spot with

A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
...
So when you flop something good, goto war right away for the biggest payoff.

[/ QUOTE ]

I get your argument, but you contradict yourself. Either I'm going to war on the flop with AK or I'm waiting to raise the river with AK.

My point was that there are a LOT more hands that he's going to 3-bet to defend with than hands that beat us here, but that I'm not likely to be able to fold a flop 3-bettor with just a raise, anywhere, and if he does fold he had complete garbage anyway and I wanted him to keep bluffing. If I raise the flop or the turn, he's going to shut down with his TP hands (either to trap me or fearing two-pair), and fold his suited garbage and other garbage defending hands. otoh, if I call-call-raise it's the same situation you describe because he's not going to be able to 3-bet the river with anything other than top two-pair or a set (as long as there isn't a scare card).

Sort of a modified WA/WB thing? Maybe? Anyone else have an opinion?

Vote4Pedro · #7 12-18-2005, 07:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If I raise the flop or the turn, he's going to shut down with his TP hands (either to trap me or fearing two-pair), and fold his suited garbage and other garbage defending hands. otoh, if I call-call-raise it's the same situation you describe because he's not going to be able to 3-bet the river with anything other than top two-pair or a set (as long as there isn't a scare card).

[/ QUOTE ]

There just isnt any value in raising the river...IF hes defending with garbage, he isnt paying off your river raise. Like you said, its gonna be extremely hard for him to 3bet this river without a monster holding. Just call the river and hope he got out of control with A-high or something. There arent many hands hes calling a raise with that you beat

Shillx · #8 12-18-2005, 08:00 PM

You aren't getting the point. Call-call-raising with strong hands + busted draws is best done against people who donk the flop in small pots. When you get 3-bet before the flop and have every reason to believe that he isn't doing it lightly, you should jam your strong hands + good draws.

AlmightyJay · #9 12-18-2005, 08:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Fairly new to the table, just a couple of orbits, but it's looking pretty tight, pretty passive. Not enough hands on Villan to think much, but hadn't seen him get out of line, anywhere.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
4 folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, BB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Dodgy, but all the remaining players had been pretty tight for the few orbits I'd been at the table, and I'd only played one hand, it was a good one, and I played it hard. Figured I had a good shot at a full steal, at least get the button.

Flop: (6.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

River: (6.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.

Final Pot: 10.25 BB

I didn't want to slow him down if I was ahead and I didn't figure to be able to fold him, regardless.

[/ QUOTE ]

Standard WA/WB, no?

bozlax · #10 12-19-2005, 12:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
have every reason to believe that he isn't doing it lightly

[/ QUOTE ]

See the OP. I have no reason to believe he isn't doing it lightly. Villan is unknown.