Once again, just fastplay your monster hands (low content)

davelin · #1 03-03-2005, 03:25 PM

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 4 folds, Button calls, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, Button calls.

Flop: (8 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, Button calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, Button calls.

River: (8.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, Button folds, Hero 3-bets, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Qs Qd (four of a kind, queens).
UTG+1 has Jh Kh (flush, king high).
Outcome: Hero wins 14.50 BB.

Buckmulligan · #2 03-03-2005, 03:35 PM

I like that hand. Are you suggesting that a check raise be reserved for when your hand is somewhat marginal only? Just wondering.

davelin · #3 03-03-2005, 03:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I like that hand. Are you suggesting that a check raise be reserved for when your hand is somewhat marginal only? Just wondering.

[/ QUOTE ]

A check/raise should be when you have a clear and intended purpose to check/raise. You shouldn't go for a check/raise with a monster hand because it looks cool on TV. Me going for the check/raise here is silly, I'm the aggressor and therefore the most likely to bet the flop. As you can see here, I lost no value betting the flop.

chris_a · #4 03-03-2005, 03:47 PM

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You shouldn't go for a check/raise with a monster hand because it looks cool on TV.

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I don't usually laugh out loud when I read things online, but this made me laugh out loud.

[ QUOTE ]
Me going for the check/raise here is silly, I'm the aggressor and therefore the most likely to bet the flop. As you can see here, I lost no value betting the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I second this in this hand and the overall notion.

davelin · #5 03-03-2005, 03:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You shouldn't go for a check/raise with a monster hand because it looks cool on TV.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't usually laugh out loud when I read things online, but this made me laugh out loud.

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In all seriousness there seems to be a trend with newer limit players when they flop a monster hand to go for the check/raise because they think that'll get the most money in the pot. But without a clear reason why, it ends up costing getting less money in the end.

Edit - for clarity

bottomset · #6 03-03-2005, 04:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You shouldn't go for a check/raise with a monster hand because it looks cool on TV.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't usually laugh out loud when I read things online, but this made me laugh out loud.

[/ QUOTE ]

In all seriousness there seems to be a trend with newer limit players when they flop a monster hand to go for the check/raise because they think that'll get the most money in the pot. But without a clear reason why, it ends up costing more money in the end.

[/ QUOTE ]

yep everything you do at the table should have a reason

nice hand

KingOtter · #7 03-03-2005, 04:12 PM

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yep everything you do at the table should have a reason

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Which goes triple for 'calling'. 'Calling' shouldn't be the default-after-everything-else-is-bad action.

KO

bleechers · #8 03-03-2005, 04:20 PM

I think part of the reason why lot new players love the check-raise is they started to play Texas holdem as NL game at home or watching on TV.

In No limit this monster needs to be slowed play hoping to convince someone when make possible Str8 or Flush that they have best hand and you can make big bet or have them make big bet in to you.

In limit you need to push. Players are going to call if they have pair or draw and fold if they have nothing (Well sometimes.)

This is one of my biggest leaks at times. Becuse I play both games. Mostly Limt but NL Tournment twice month to keep what little skill I have there in tact.

davelin · #9 03-03-2005, 04:26 PM

Limit poker is (obviously) a game of limited expectation in terms of profit. When you slowplay the flop, you are passing up a certain amount of expectation that you can't get back (I don't mean you can't get more play on the turn or river, it's just you can't replay the flop betting round). So in that respect, the burden of proof IMO is for the slowplaying argument, not the fastplaying side of the fence. I haven't yet seen a good way to devise the speculative profit you expect to gain on the big streets by passing up a certain profit on the flop.

I'll just say this, a lot of the monster hands that you want your opponents to draw on the flop in order for you to get play back, a lot of them will be happy to pay the small SB on the flop to get there.

kenberman · #10 03-03-2005, 04:35 PM

I'm not trying to dissent to this hand in particular, but there are plenty of cases where slowplaying monster hands is appropriate.

If faking weakness on the flop succesfully allows you to to get another bet in on the turn/river, then the slowplay has succeeded.

Now, it is difficult to decide exactly where this is appropriate, and not every situation calls for a slowplay.

But some do.