Raising Preflop

My point is that I see the words "thinning the field" as a reason to raise in poker literature and throught this forum. I do not know why we would want to do that.

[Roadstar]

Please try to come up with a better way of asking a question or starting a debate if thats your intention.

Here is an example:

You have AA UTG you raise.

I'm in the BB with 22

Lets assume I know you are holding AA so quantitatively (since you like it so much) I'm a 4-1 dog. If everyone folded to me, I should fold (ignoring implied odds for a second since I don't want to make assumptions about post flop playing skills at this point).

So here you want me to call so I make a mistake.

But lets assume everyone on the table cold calls your raise. With 19 SB in the pot, I'm getting 19-1 so it is correct for me to call now my EV is now +.

because mathematically 19-1 is greater than 4-1.

Now why did this happen? because you WANT 9 callers didn't you?

The reason is when one person cold calls 2SB, most of it goes to you in terms of equity. So if you're 80% favorite, 80% of the 2SB or 1.6SB "is expected to belong to you" (EV). BUT as more ppl call, other hands gain in value, so their mistake starts getting distributed to other ppl with legitimate hands that can outdraw you at the right price.

Your incremental EV from each cold caller decreases (and starts shifting to me with the 22).

In other words, your second derivative starts getting smaller (the rate of change on incremental EV). Conceivably, you're not only raising with just AA and they would be hands where additional callers help allocate equity away from you and to someone else - making the incremental equity negative or simply put you want to thin the field.

BTW what does the 2 *'s mean [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Ok. You can also come up with elaborate scenarios where AA is a dog preflop. You can come up with elaborate scenarios where I want people to fold. I agree in this situation it is better for me if 22 folds. He never will, so if he does fold he is folding a hand like 810o that I want to call.

Two statements :
1) 95% of the time, if a player folds, you actually wanted him to call.
2) Thinning the fields is a myth.

[binions]

[ QUOTE ]
When I raise preflop I am not hoping people will fold. Ever. In fact, when I play poker, I am not hoping anything; this is aside from the point.

When I raise AK UTG I want 9 callers. When I raise J10s on the button I want 2 callers.

I do not want to thin the field. I raise for value. Thinning the field is a myth.

[/ QUOTE ]

You must never raise to isolate . . .

Nothing in poker is absolute. Your statements are off base.

How about this scenerio which Ive found even in loose games: (I play a lot of 2/4 online).

In these loose games as Im sure you will agree you get a lot of people who constantly limp into the pot. Usually the ones who continuously do it all the time are your weaker players who are playing weak hands and provide you with the whole reason you might of chosen to play at that table.

The rest of the players are those such as yourself, or perhaps those that are not excellent players but not loose maniacs either. (vanilla players if you will, slightly loose aggressives, rocks, etc....) They are beatable perhaps but overall you wont get nearly as much money from them without some degree of luck.

If I was sitting in LP with a decent (but not great hand) or a drawing hand, I had a bad habit of always limping behind other limpers.

Now obviously there are all sorts of reasons why you wouldnt want to do that, but one reason I came up with is that I actually do want to isolate those bad players that have already limped in.

If I am successful and can isolate them there is more of a chance that I will take more of their money before anyone else since I am choosing way better hand selection, I have superior position and Im more likely to make the correct choices from the flop on.

If I dont isolate them then it's not as clear, you could have much better players in the pot with better starting hands (because you might not always just raise with your monster starting hands). Id rather take the worst players head on along with the huge implied odds that they are dragging along with them.

I know this might go against anything that's an EV consideration but I think it does address one area of "luck" in table selection which is getting a table with the worst players and having an oppurtunity to take as much of their money as possible before anyone else can.

Another scenerio that I go thru is that even when I raise a big hand, I would rather that anyone with a better position than I have would fold. (especially if they are a better player that I know doesnt play a lot of hands) If they are in the hand then I usually have to be a lot more careful. (not that I play careful, it's just not as desirable)

Im sure they can bring up tons of examples where you would want to thin the field that are far better than mine.

But I dont agree that your question is dumb. I just think it's kind of redundent. You are making a statement that you are "not hoping" people will fold, yet you "want" callers, yet "you are not hoping anything".

Obviously what you want and hope for is illrelevant and it doesnt seem that you are making a statement about how to play but merely what you should or shouldnt hope for...

[Roadstar]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok. You can also come up with elaborate scenarios where AA is a dog preflop. You can come up with elaborate scenarios where I want people to fold. I agree in this situation it is better for me if 22 folds. He never will, so if he does fold he is folding a hand like 810o that I want to call.

Two statements :
1) 95% of the time, if a player folds, you actually wanted him to call.
2) Thinning the fields is a myth.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know there are lots of elaborate scenarios but I can't name them all.

"I agree in this situation it is better for me if 22 folds. He never will"

Well no you are wrong , you want 22 to call if its folded to the BB because hes only getting 3.5 to 1 and you're a 4 to 1 favorite (calling would be a mistake here). So his call is incorrect. With everyone cold calling then you want him to fold (folding would be the mistake here).

BTW, I fold 22 facing a raise if I'm not in the blinds most of the time (unless I expect enough callers to justify adeqyate odds).

Your statements: 1) you assume you're superior at the table and know you have the best hand when you raise. Its a game of incomplete info you don't know precisely who you want to call or fold. 2) I have no idea what you mean when you say thinning the fields is a myth - are we in a fairy land when we raise and everyone folds but one. The field has been thinned. But you say thinning is a myth.

If you had KQ and raise in MP, 2+2er with AJo folds, you picked up some equity but raising and it happens to weed him out. Otherwise you would have been an underdog. I don't know how else to explain.

[sfer]

Generally, I agree, particularly given the quality of low limit games online right now, and for most live mid-stakes games that I've seen.

There are, however, plenty of games where I raise hoping that people behind me fold.

[UVaHoo]

I've just been skimming some of these posts, but you said, "1) 95% of the time, if a player folds, you actually wanted him to call."

This simply isn't true.

Isn't all of this a Fundamental Theory of Poker argument? If I make a play that's different from the play I would make if I could see your cards, then I've lost money for myself and made money for you.

If you raise with AKo, and I'm holding 22, I'm a slight favorite preflop. If you raise, and I could see your cards, it would be right for me to re-raise. However, in this situation, you'd want me to fold, because my hand is a favorite over your hand. You're making less money if I call or re-raise you than you are if I fold. Why wouldn't you want me to fold?

Also, say you raise with AKo again. I have JTs in the big blind. I'm getting 3.5 to 1 to call. Even though you make money if I call, you're making more money on me if I fold, because if I could see your cards, I'd call you with JTs and see a flop. The problem for you with my call is that even though you still make money, I make more money by calling you than folding. That money comes from someone, and that "someone" is you.

Out of curiosity, have you read "Theory of Poker"? It addresses the basic situation you brought up.

As a multiplayer example, suppose I have 55 on the button. You have AA utg. You raise, and 4 people cold-call. I'm now getting 11.5 to 1 to call, and I'm only a 4:1 underdog to your bullets. It's +EV for me to call you there, and that hurts your overall EV for me to call.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]


It is extremely rare for it to be folded to me in late position in the games I play in.



[/ QUOTE ]

Ending sentences in prepositions is not +EV.

[thejameser]

[ QUOTE ]
When I raise preflop I am not hoping people will fold. Ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

you lost me at "Ever".